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Thread: American Standard Champion toilet Review and comments. Rated #1 by Consumer Reports

  1. #181
    Comments by readers Reader Review's Avatar
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    installed two of the Champion Toilets in July of 05. Each of them have given us numerous problems similar to others herein, please some one get a class action going. Larry, Kerrville TX.
    Larry
    http://www.americanstandardclassaction.com/
    Last edited by Reader Review; 01-05-2008 at 09:24 AM.

  2. #182

    Default Happy with Champion 4

    I'm toying with the idea of starting another thread for the Champion 4 toilet - I don't think the latest version of this toilet is deserving of the "bad press" it's getting here.

    I installed a Champion 4 toilet in October of '07, purchased from Home Depot. I had just returned another brand after having two bowls that rocked and would not sit flat on the floor.

    As others have said, there is a contradiction in the instructions between the printed instructions & the ones on the plastic gasket package. I did not heed the instructions that said to tighten the bowl/tank bolts by hand only with the provided "socket" wrench, as this was not tight enough and the tank would move. I ended up using a deep well socket & ratchet. DO NOT tighten the bolts until the tank touches the lugs on the bowl - this would be WAY too tight and would likely crack the tank.

    So how's it work? Well first of all, they must have redesigned the flush mechanism somehow, because I do not believe it is any louder than any other toilet I've heard. No complaints at all with a loud flush.

    No problems with the flush valve leaking or not working.

    What I do like is that IT DOES NOT CLOG!!! The toilet we replaced (a miserable low flow Mansfield from '95 or so) would clog every day or two. Can you imagine how sick we were of that after 10 plus years! The flush on this toilet is great, not a single clog after almost 3 months. I have noticed when cleaning it, the porcelain inside the bowl is extremely smooth & slippery, which must help.

    So I'd have to say, in my experience this toilet is not deserving of the bad rap it is getting here, it has really been improved. I'd recommend it.

    Dave in WI

  3. #183

    Default

    My parents just built a new house and it has two Champions in it that they purchased from Lowe's. They were installed in August and haven't had any issues yet.

    http://www.terrylove.com/store/index.htm
    Last edited by Reader Review; 01-05-2008 at 09:28 AM.

  4. #184

    Default MaP Rating of the Champion

    I noticed last night that there is no more link of the MaP report on Terry's website. I used to be there when I first did my search on toilets. So I googled for the latest update of the report. I found that AS had the most toilet models with 1000 grams rating. Toto did not have any. The two heightest rated ones were the Drake (which I also own) at 900 grams and the Aquia at 800. One thing the ratings do not show is if the toilet clogs. The Champion's 2 3/8" trap just does not clog. The Drake's was 2 1/8", and eventhough the AS Compact Cadet is rated at 1000 grams, it also has a 2 1/8" trap, and I'm afraid it may clog.

    Last edited by Terry; 02-15-2014 at 11:36 AM. Reason: added picture

  5. #185
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Default Why my testing is different

    there is no more link of the MaP report on Terry's website
    The reason the MaP is no longer linked:

    1) It only tests for one thing. How much miso paste in plastic liners will it flush without a clog.
    2) Anything over 500 grams is overkill. So ratings of 500 plus don't mean much. (the average person does not know that)
    There have always been toilets that were perfect in the real world at 450 grams and some that weren't with much higher MaP ratings.
    3) The testing method has changed, but they haven't gone back and retested the toilets that were tested years ago. Therefore, you have recent testing with new methods, compared to testing methods that are no longer being done.
    4) There is no test for quality control.
    5) There is no test for bowl rinsing
    6) There is no test for bowl depth
    7) There is no test for sound levels or startle factor
    8) There is no test for cost of future repairs.
    9) There is no test for aesthetics
    10) There is no test for, Can you even get the parts?
    11) There is no test for how warped the porcelain is and how often they need shimming.
    12) There is no testing for how often certain brands will patch a leak on a bowl or tank and put it in a box anyway.
    13) There is no test for how many service calls the plumber is required to do on warranty.
    14) How easy it assembles

    If you disagree with my report on toilets, because I take so much more into consideration than the others,
    then I would love to know what car you drive, and why you chose it.

    It's like saying you choose a spouse for how many bags of groceries they can carry in from the car in one trip.
    Or is that too conceptual for you?


    For Love Plumbing & Remodel in 2007
    You know my customers are happy.
    Last edited by Terry; 01-05-2008 at 12:01 PM.

  6. #186
    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    The reason the MaP is no longer linked:
    10) There is no test for, Can you even get the parts?
    Number one in my rankings. I think that with conservation such a big issue these companies making and box stores selling items with no repair parts should be illegal. How much stuff is in the dump because we can not find parts?

    AS can add another S in my book for lack of service and parts on their suppliers shelves, Moen is on my list for that also. What good does shipping a new part in weeks or even days when the customer wants it fixed now.

    Keep on preachin' it Terry!
    Last edited by construct30; 01-05-2008 at 02:11 PM.

  7. #187

    Default Wow, there must be a misunderstanding?

    Terry, you must have misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about your ratings, I was just stating an observation. Actually, I think your website is very informative. I did not find it until after I purchased the champion and I used your advise to purchase the toto drake. The only reason it looks like I'm favoring the champion is because it has never clogged, and it was easy to purchase. I had to special order the Toto and it took a week to get it. And if it didn't clog the 3 times, I would have no problem ordering it again for my 3rd bathroom. When I bring up the MaP report it's nice to see that there are many more toilets that perform good compared to a few years ago when there was just a few. I wish that I had a local shop like yours with your knowledge and inventory, but I'm stuck with what we have here, and what the updated MaP report does is give me options. So if I find a toilet on sale, I can see if it can actually complete the job. All your points are valid, I do not disagree with any, except for anything over 600 grams is overkill. When my 2 year old unrolls a whole roll of TP into the toilet (which has happened before), it is nice to know that I can just flush it down instead of scooping it out and getting the plunger. So, please do not take what I said before personally. If you have any other recommendations on a toilet I can get locally, I will appreciate the information. Thank you

  8. #188
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    I had a Champion installed in one home, after a while, it wouldn't flush a hot dog down. Everyone was laughing about it.
    It had the leaking seal on the flush valve, and pretty soon, the trip lever was prematurely letting go of the flush tower, the reason the flush was poor.

    On the other hand, I've seen the Caroma that is rated at 450 grams never plug.

    So, it really isn't all that simple.

    By the way, the neighbor across the street from me was very happy with his Champion, and in the next year or so admitted that he had a steady tank leak.
    One of my customers last year replaced a non-flushing Champion with a Toto, so I dropped off the old Champion for my neighbor to use, rather than dumping with the rest of the weekly dump run.
    I don't know if he installed it though, he was already having problems with his first Champion and was wondering if the one I gave him would be any good.

    Last edited by Terry; 02-28-2009 at 11:03 AM.

  9. #189

    Default I agree

    I agree it is not that simple, and that type of information is what consumers really need. But like I said before, It would be nice to have that type of testing done on many models so a consumer knows what he/she is purchasing. Consumer reports tried testing a sample of toilets and they got it completely wrong giving the Briggs its highest ratings.

  10. #190
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    They can always find it on the net, if they want it simple.

    I like to consider about 15 items.

    If long term usage is not an issue, then use the simple report, it's a lot less thinking.

    I've had people use the simple report though, bought and installed toilets thinking that the ratings on the MaP had consistent meaning, like maybe pertaining to quality.
    That is not what the report is about. It's not a report on quality.
    So, after they install their choice, they can always call me to pull it and replace it.

    So if they want to cut corners and keep it simple, then yes, only considering one thing out of fifteen may be the answer. I'm always here to pull out their mistake and haul it to the dump.
    It's what I do for many people.

    When I moved into this house, the neighbor across the street was bragging up his Champion.
    A year latter he was saying he had a tank leak.

    I installed a Champion in a friends home, and I replaced the tank in the first six months.
    It had quit flushing solids, and the tank leaked.

    I pulled a Champion for another customer, (it had quit flushing solids) and gave it to the neighbor across the street, who by the way was a little leery of installing a second Champion, since his first one wasn't working right.
    Last edited by Terry; 01-06-2008 at 05:01 PM.

  11. #191
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Default Champion class action suit


  12. #192
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    I INSTALLED ONE OF THESE CHAMPIONS ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO AND DID NOT REGISTER IT. WHO REGISTERS A TOILET? I HAVE WORKED ON IT CONSTANTLY SINCE ITS COMENCENENT FLUSH AND I MIGHT SAY "TOTALLY WITHOUT ANY IMPROVEMENT!" I HAVE HUNTED AND SEARCHED FOR PARTS ONLY TO AGAIN HEAR THE CONSTANT LEAK UNTIL I FINALLY INSTALLED A 90 DEG. SHUTOFF VALVE WHICH WE NOW USE PRIOR TO FLUSHING. IT'S GREAT TO TELL YOUR GUEST TO RECHARGE THE TOILET PRIOR TO DOING THEIR BUSINESS. AND OH, WOULD YOU MIND TURNING IT OFF WHEN YOUR THRU? NOT BAD FOR A STRUCTURE WJICH COST WELL OVER $200.00. AND ISN'T IT GREAT WHEN YOU GO INTO LOWES AND ASK FOR REPLACEMENT PARTS ONLY TO HAVE THE GUY TELL YOU WHAT A FOOL YOU WERE FOR PURCHASING SUCH A PIECE OF "CRAP" (NO PUN INTENDED.) AND I LOVE THE LOOK ON HIS FACE WHEN I TELL HIM HE WAS THE SALESMAN THAT TALKED ME INTO BUYING THIS "WONDER THROWN' THAT WOULD FLUSH A DOZEN GOLF BALLS DOWN WITH ONLY ONE FLUSH. WELL I NEVER ACTUALLY TRIED THE BALL FLUSH TRICK BECAUSE I WAS SLIGHTLY CONCERNED ABOUT FILLING UP BY SEPTIC SYSTEM WITH USELES ITEMS THAT WOULD NOT BE EATEN BY THE LITTLE CRITTERS LING IN THE TANKS. AS IT TURNED OUT I SHOULD HAVE GONE AHEAD AND FLUSHE ALL OF THE GOLF BALL THAT MY NEIGHBOR HAD CHIPPED INTO MY BACK YARD BECAUSE THE CONSTANT RUNNING OF WATER HAS OVERFLOWED MY TANKS AND I HAD TO PAY TO GET THEM FLUSHED AND I COULD HAVE GOT THE GOLF BALLS BACK AND RETURNED THEM TO MY NEIGHBOR. R. REED, BURLESON, TEXAS

  13. #193
    Consultant cwhyu2's Avatar
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    I have 2 A/S toilets in our 130 yr old house I replaced the 1st W/C in 92 and
    it was free one peice re biult 2000 old tilt flush valve.3.5 flush NEVER had
    one single problem.Insalled NEW A/S on 2nd fl 1.5 in 95 have not to so
    much as even replace the flapper.Work on ONE W/C in that amount of time
    pleases me.Not one clog issue ever.When I get a chance I will get the# in
    the tanks to let you know witch ones they are.

  14. #194
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    I have 2 A/S toilets in our 130 yr old house
    Nice, but they are not Champion toilets, and this is a Champion toilet review.



    If you have a Champion toilet, they do make a replacement flush valve for it now shown in the picture below.
    Last edited by Terry; 01-09-2008 at 11:52 AM.

  15. #195
    Consultant cwhyu2's Avatar
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    That looks worse than A mansfaild 210.

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