American Standard Champion toilet Review and comments. Rated #1 by Consumer Reports

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Dave in WI

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Happy with Champion 4

I'm toying with the idea of starting another thread for the Champion 4 toilet - I don't think the latest version of this toilet is deserving of the "bad press" it's getting here.

I installed a Champion 4 toilet in October of '07, purchased from Home Depot. I had just returned another brand after having two bowls that rocked and would not sit flat on the floor.

As others have said, there is a contradiction in the instructions between the printed instructions & the ones on the plastic gasket package. I did not heed the instructions that said to tighten the bowl/tank bolts by hand only with the provided "socket" wrench, as this was not tight enough and the tank would move. I ended up using a deep well socket & ratchet. DO NOT tighten the bolts until the tank touches the lugs on the bowl - this would be WAY too tight and would likely crack the tank.

So how's it work? Well first of all, they must have redesigned the flush mechanism somehow, because I do not believe it is any louder than any other toilet I've heard. No complaints at all with a loud flush.

No problems with the flush valve leaking or not working.

What I do like is that IT DOES NOT CLOG!!! The toilet we replaced (a miserable low flow Mansfield from '95 or so) would clog every day or two. Can you imagine how sick we were of that after 10 plus years! The flush on this toilet is great, not a single clog after almost 3 months. I have noticed when cleaning it, the porcelain inside the bowl is extremely smooth & slippery, which must help.

So I'd have to say, in my experience this toilet is not deserving of the bad rap it is getting here, it has really been improved. I'd recommend it.

Dave in WI
 

Hmayesh

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MaP Rating of the Champion

I noticed last night that there is no more link of the MaP report on Terry's website. I used to be there when I first did my search on toilets. So I googled for the latest update of the report. I found that AS had the most toilet models with 1000 grams rating. Toto did not have any. The two heightest rated ones were the Drake (which I also own) at 900 grams and the Aquia at 800. One thing the ratings do not show is if the toilet clogs. The Champion's 2 3/8" trap just does not clog. The Drake's was 2 1/8", and eventhough the AS Compact Cadet is rated at 1000 grams, it also has a 2 1/8" trap, and I'm afraid it may clog.

champion_bottom_exit.jpg
 
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Terry

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Why my testing is different

there is no more link of the MaP report on Terry's website
The reason the MaP is no longer linked:

1) It only tests for one thing. How much miso paste in plastic liners will it flush without a clog.
2) Anything over 500 grams is overkill. So ratings of 500 plus don't mean much. (the average person does not know that)
There have always been toilets that were perfect in the real world at 450 grams and some that weren't with much higher MaP ratings.
3) The testing method has changed, but they haven't gone back and retested the toilets that were tested years ago. Therefore, you have recent testing with new methods, compared to testing methods that are no longer being done.
4) There is no test for quality control.
5) There is no test for bowl rinsing
6) There is no test for bowl depth
7) There is no test for sound levels or startle factor
8) There is no test for cost of future repairs.
9) There is no test for aesthetics
10) There is no test for, Can you even get the parts?
11) There is no test for how warped the porcelain is and how often they need shimming.
12) There is no testing for how often certain brands will patch a leak on a bowl or tank and put it in a box anyway.
13) There is no test for how many service calls the plumber is required to do on warranty.
14) How easy it assembles

If you disagree with my report on toilets, because I take so much more into consideration than the others,
then I would love to know what car you drive, and why you chose it.

It's like saying you choose a spouse for how many bags of groceries they can carry in from the car in one trip.
Or is that too conceptual for you?

Angies%20list%2007%20award.jpg

For Love Plumbing & Remodel in 2007
You know my customers are happy.
 
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Construct30

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The reason the MaP is no longer linked:
10) There is no test for, Can you even get the parts?

Number one in my rankings. I think that with conservation such a big issue these companies making and box stores selling items with no repair parts should be illegal. How much stuff is in the dump because we can not find parts?

AS can add another S in my book for lack of service and parts on their suppliers shelves, Moen is on my list for that also. What good does shipping a new part in weeks or even days when the customer wants it fixed now.

Keep on preachin' it Terry!
 
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Hmayesh

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Wow, there must be a misunderstanding?

Terry, you must have misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about your ratings, I was just stating an observation. Actually, I think your website is very informative. I did not find it until after I purchased the champion and I used your advise to purchase the toto drake. The only reason it looks like I'm favoring the champion is because it has never clogged, and it was easy to purchase. I had to special order the Toto and it took a week to get it. And if it didn't clog the 3 times, I would have no problem ordering it again for my 3rd bathroom. When I bring up the MaP report it's nice to see that there are many more toilets that perform good compared to a few years ago when there was just a few. I wish that I had a local shop like yours with your knowledge and inventory, but I'm stuck with what we have here, and what the updated MaP report does is give me options. So if I find a toilet on sale, I can see if it can actually complete the job. All your points are valid, I do not disagree with any, except for anything over 600 grams is overkill. When my 2 year old unrolls a whole roll of TP into the toilet (which has happened before), it is nice to know that I can just flush it down instead of scooping it out and getting the plunger. So, please do not take what I said before personally. If you have any other recommendations on a toilet I can get locally, I will appreciate the information. Thank you
 

Terry

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I had a Champion installed in one home, after a while, it wouldn't flush a hot dog down. Everyone was laughing about it.
It had the leaking seal on the flush valve, and pretty soon, the trip lever was prematurely letting go of the flush tower, the reason the flush was poor.

On the other hand, I've seen the Caroma that is rated at 450 grams never plug.

So, it really isn't all that simple.

By the way, the neighbor across the street from me was very happy with his Champion, and in the next year or so admitted that he had a steady tank leak.
One of my customers last year replaced a non-flushing Champion with a Toto, so I dropped off the old Champion for my neighbor to use, rather than dumping with the rest of the weekly dump run.
I don't know if he installed it though, he was already having problems with his first Champion and was wondering if the one I gave him would be any good.

champion_cathy.jpg
 
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Hmayesh

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I agree

I agree it is not that simple, and that type of information is what consumers really need. But like I said before, It would be nice to have that type of testing done on many models so a consumer knows what he/she is purchasing. Consumer reports tried testing a sample of toilets and they got it completely wrong giving the Briggs its highest ratings.
 

Terry

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They can always find it on the net, if they want it simple.

I like to consider about 15 items.

If long term usage is not an issue, then use the simple report, it's a lot less thinking.

I've had people use the simple report though, bought and installed toilets thinking that the ratings on the MaP had consistent meaning, like maybe pertaining to quality.
That is not what the report is about. It's not a report on quality.
So, after they install their choice, they can always call me to pull it and replace it.

So if they want to cut corners and keep it simple, then yes, only considering one thing out of fifteen may be the answer. I'm always here to pull out their mistake and haul it to the dump.
It's what I do for many people.

When I moved into this house, the neighbor across the street was bragging up his Champion.
A year latter he was saying he had a tank leak.

I installed a Champion in a friends home, and I replaced the tank in the first six months.
It had quit flushing solids, and the tank leaked.

I pulled a Champion for another customer, (it had quit flushing solids) and gave it to the neighbor across the street, who by the way was a little leery of installing a second Champion, since his first one wasn't working right.
 
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Reader Review

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I INSTALLED ONE OF THESE CHAMPIONS ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO AND DID NOT REGISTER IT. WHO REGISTERS A TOILET? I HAVE WORKED ON IT CONSTANTLY SINCE ITS COMENCENENT FLUSH AND I MIGHT SAY "TOTALLY WITHOUT ANY IMPROVEMENT!" I HAVE HUNTED AND SEARCHED FOR PARTS ONLY TO AGAIN HEAR THE CONSTANT LEAK UNTIL I FINALLY INSTALLED A 90 DEG. SHUTOFF VALVE WHICH WE NOW USE PRIOR TO FLUSHING. IT'S GREAT TO TELL YOUR GUEST TO RECHARGE THE TOILET PRIOR TO DOING THEIR BUSINESS. AND OH, WOULD YOU MIND TURNING IT OFF WHEN YOUR THRU? NOT BAD FOR A STRUCTURE WJICH COST WELL OVER $200.00. AND ISN'T IT GREAT WHEN YOU GO INTO LOWES AND ASK FOR REPLACEMENT PARTS ONLY TO HAVE THE GUY TELL YOU WHAT A FOOL YOU WERE FOR PURCHASING SUCH A PIECE OF "CRAP" (NO PUN INTENDED.) AND I LOVE THE LOOK ON HIS FACE WHEN I TELL HIM HE WAS THE SALESMAN THAT TALKED ME INTO BUYING THIS "WONDER THROWN' THAT WOULD FLUSH A DOZEN GOLF BALLS DOWN WITH ONLY ONE FLUSH. WELL I NEVER ACTUALLY TRIED THE BALL FLUSH TRICK BECAUSE I WAS SLIGHTLY CONCERNED ABOUT FILLING UP BY SEPTIC SYSTEM WITH USELES ITEMS THAT WOULD NOT BE EATEN BY THE LITTLE CRITTERS LING IN THE TANKS. AS IT TURNED OUT I SHOULD HAVE GONE AHEAD AND FLUSHE ALL OF THE GOLF BALL THAT MY NEIGHBOR HAD CHIPPED INTO MY BACK YARD BECAUSE THE CONSTANT RUNNING OF WATER HAS OVERFLOWED MY TANKS AND I HAD TO PAY TO GET THEM FLUSHED AND I COULD HAVE GOT THE GOLF BALLS BACK AND RETURNED THEM TO MY NEIGHBOR. R. REED, BURLESON, TEXAS
 
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Cwhyu2

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I have 2 A/S toilets in our 130 yr old house I replaced the 1st W/C in 92 and
it was free one peice re biult 2000 old tilt flush valve.3.5 flush NEVER had
one single problem.Insalled NEW A/S on 2nd fl 1.5 in 95 have not to so
much as even replace the flapper.Work on ONE W/C in that amount of time
pleases me.Not one clog issue ever.When I get a chance I will get the# in
the tanks to let you know witch ones they are.
 

Terry

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I have 2 A/S toilets in our 130 yr old house

Nice, but they are not Champion toilets, and this is a Champion toilet review.

Bad-Good-Seal.jpg


If you have a Champion toilet, they do make a replacement flush valve for it now shown in the picture below.

champion-4-flush-valve-replacement-01.jpg
 
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HMT_97

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Inherited Champion

We discovered we had a Champion in the home we purchased when the toilet quit flushing a few days after we moved in. When I opened the tank the flush valve brought power station cooling towers to mind. I reattached the chain to the valve and it worked again for a few days. When it stopped flushing again and I opened the tank and I found that the spring mechanism the chain was attached to had separated from the valve. I futzed with it a bit and managed to reattach it and it worked for a few more days when the spring mechanism fell apart again. This happened a few times with increasing frequency until my daughter decided to fix it with some wire. This worked for a few days. When this fell apart we called the plumber who recognized the model as the golf ball toilet. When he went for parts there were none to be had but Home Depot let him salvage what he needed from a spare tank they had on hand and he succeeded in replacing the valve.

I called the plumber back a few days later when I noticed the floor was squishing and traced the source back to the tank seating. This was remedied by the plumber and all was well for a few months until we noticed the tank was refilling itself between flushes. We tolerated this but it kept getting worse until it was running almost constantly. We opened the tank repeatedly looking for the problem and found no reason. We started shutting the water off between flushes and contemplated yet another call to the plumber. However, I opened the tank one more time and ran my fingers around the red seal. I was thinking may a piece of debris was stuck to it. I found nothing so I ran my fingers around it a second time. On the second pass I felt a bulge in the seal. This turned out to be an air bubble which collapsed when I squeezed it. Suddenly the seal was working and I felt like the darn thing might actually work out for a while.

To my disappointment a month later the spring mechanism fell apart again. I put it back together and it lasted a few flushes. Yesterday we started shopping for a new toilet which is how we came to this site, about one nine months from the time we purchased the house. We will not purchase another Champion or any other AS product.

I am not sure what our standing is for a class action suite given we inherited our Champ from a previous owner but we'd be happy to give it a go.

hmt
 

plumbtired

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Another dissatisfied Champion toilet(s) owner...but wait, there's more!!

Just found this forum...wished I'd found it earlier, like two years ago when I bought two of those pesky Champion (Williamsburg) toilets.

I, too, am plagued with leaky (and extremely noisy) flush valves. Both toilets are problematic. I have been getting middle-of-the-night phantom flushes (both toilets--different nights, fortunately) due to the leaky valves causing the tank to refill, plus incomplete flushes when I do flush the toilets.

I saw Terry's photos (at least, I think they are Terry's) of the valve seal replacement and of the replacement flush valves. I've done the valve seals bit, with no success. So...I (just) phoned American Standard (800-442-1902), and after a short wait, spoke with a representative who was very courteous and promptly took my name and address. He also asked for the model number (etched inside the tank, starting with a "4" and is 4 digits long, of each toilet--was the same number) and told me they would be shipping me a couple of ("free"!!) replacement flush valves. It was a painless procedure and I didn't even have to complain about the lousy toilet, other than tell him the flush values were no good...and no parts were available to fix them.

I should receive my two replacement flush valves within 10 days, the representative informed me. A big "THANKS" to Terry for this forum and for posting the photos of the replacement flush valve. By the way, I think the American Standard telephone rep was somewhat surprised when I replied to his "the replacement valve will look different than the one you have" that I knew that because I'd seen a photo of one.
 
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Redwood

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I (just) phoned American Standard (800-442-1902), and after a short wait, spoke with a representative who was very courteous and promptly took my name and address. He also asked for the model number (etched inside the tank, starting with a "4" and is 4 digits long, of each toilet--was the same number) and told me they would be shipping me a couple of ("free"!!) replacement flush valves. It was a painless procedure and I didn't even have to complain about the lousy toilet, other than tell him the flush values were no good...and no parts were available to fix them.

I should receive my two replacement flush valves within 10 days, the representative informed me. A big "THANKS" to Terry for this forum and for posting the photos of the replacement flush valve. By the way, I think the American Standard telephone rep was somewhat surprised when I replied to his "the replacement valve will look different than the one you have" that I knew that because I'd seen a photo of one.

Don't let them fool you... They know they've got a lemon!
Are you installing this new valve yourself or, are you hiring a plumber?
Did you ask them where to send the plumbers bill?
 

plumbtired

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Follow-up on Champion flush valve replacement

As was promised, American Standard sent the two replacement flush valves as well as two new tank-bowl gaskets and hardware, all within the ten days they stated (via the phone order).

Had a little problem with the new flush valve's chain hookup to the handle stem-arm since the replacement setup involved a pin and cotter key attached to a chain. The pin was too large to go through the holes in the handle stem-arm, so I just hooked it up like it had been with the old flush valve--a wire s-hook through the hole in the arm and the other end crimped around the chain.

It works great! No more loud "clunk" when the toilet is flushed plus a much improved flow of water into the bowl. This looks like a "win" for us...and a pat on the back for American Standard. They stepped up, admitted the error of their ways (i.e. the bad piston type flush valve), and replaced it with the new-and-improved flush valve (free!).

Yes, it was a hassle. But we had installed our own Champion toilets in the first place, so pulling the tank off, removing the original no-good flush valve, installing the new-and-improved flush valve, and then re-seating the tank to the bowl was not THAT big of a deal.
 

Littlebear1

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Question: New Flush Value Kits

champion_new_part.jpg


I just purchased an older home where previous owner put in the infamous leaker. I just called AS, and they're sending me two new flush kits. I didn't have to argue with them.

In trying to decide if better to have the kits changed or purchase a new tank, can someone advise if the new flush kit solves the leaking problem.

Also, is the way in which the original tank sits a possible cause for leaking as well?

Trying to grasp if leaking can be from both flush kit and tank seating variables.

Thank you.
champion_flush4.jpg


Grading the best toilets, the ones that work!
 
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