American Standard Champion toilet Review and comments. Rated #1 by Consumer Reports

**wjcandee** · 01-16-2013, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by newfydog

We built a house a couple of years ago and installed three Champion fours(new tower ). One leaked from the beginning, and the plumber fixed it. The other two recently started a steady drip/refill. leaking at the flush valve. I replaced the blue seal with the red Corky seal from HD, but they still just drip drip drip. A can't figure out for the life of me why they drip----the seal and valve seat all look good.

Are these toilets haunted? Will American Std. replace whatever it is which needs replacing?

There seems to be a little bit of a trick to getting the original and/or the Korky seals to work in the Accelerator. A number of folks here have found that the Korky seal works perfectly the first time; others have proposed stacking the seals, making sure they are perfectly-aligned, checking the chain to make sure it pulls straight-up, etc.

If I had one of these beasts, I would probably call Korky and double-check whether the 5030BP Adjustable 3" Flush Valve and Flapper works with the Champion 4. I might even see if they'd send me one if I would review its installation ease and effectiveness on the Champion 4, as it is a new product. Installing it would require pulling the tank, which I have done a bunch of times so it's no big deal to me, but it's not as easy as replacing a fill valve. Then you would have a nice standard Korky 3" flapper controlling the water exit from your Champion tank.

If the thing is designed to fit the Champ, I personally would rather have a nice, straightforward 3" flapper instead of the doofy "Accelerator". (The Champion "4" has a 3" flush hole, if that wasn't clear...)

**GoKohlerGo** · 01-17-2013, 06:31 PM

Ok, I have just ordered a Champion4 (ordered because there is not an HD or lowes within 100 miles of me)
Round bowl standard height. I will get it tomorrow. I will post a video on my YouTube page about it. I am pretty confident that I will like it, and I am just saying that I don't like TOTO much, but I like Kohler and American Standard. I have a Cadet 3 and I like it, so with the Champion with an even bigger trapway and flush valve I am sure I will like it. Like I said, in the summer I will try to clog it with wash cloths, paper towels, toilet paper, etc.

**gusherb94** · 01-17-2013, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by GoKohlerGo

Ok, I have just ordered a Champion4 (ordered because there is not an HD or lowes within 100 miles of me)
Round bowl standard height. I will get it tomorrow. I will post a video on my YouTube page about it. I am pretty confident that I will like it, and I am just saying that I don't like TOTO much, but I like Kohler and American Standard. I have a Cadet 3 and I like it, so with the Champion with an even bigger trapway and flush valve I am sure I will like it. Like I said, in the summer I will try to clog it with wash cloths, paper towels, toilet paper, etc.

Hope you don't get a leaner! That was the issue with the one I had. It flushed very good though.

**ttabbal** · 02-24-2013, 09:34 AM

I'm curious if anyone has tried the Champion Pro and if so, have they improved on any of the common complaints?

I'm pretty well convinced to go with the Toto Drake 2, but ran into that one and thought it might have solved some of the issues. It kind of looks like they added their version of Sanigloss and a bowl wash setup, which the Drake 2 already has at a similar price. I'm leaning toward the Drake as it seems to be more reliable overall from reports here and elsewhere and the 4" valve from AS is custom, so parts are harder to get if you need them, and it sounds like you will. It also seems a little like the race to have more blades on a razor, mostly marketing. I know the crew here is more into Toto (sounds like there are good reasons), but the information might be useful for others searching for data on the Pro model. All I can really find is marketing stuff from AS. The Google is not with me today, it seems. Or people just don't buy them, not a good sign.

Unfortunately, it looks like I'll have to order either of them online. I'm going to dig and call around, but the main local plumbing supply house wants about $500 for the Drake 2, according to their website. Amazon has it for <$300 and I have Prime, so free 2 day shipping. I'm willing to buy local when they are remotely competitive, but that's a little much. I'm a little concerned about shipping damage for a fragile item like this, but reviews look pretty good for the Toto packaging.

Thanks to everyone here for the great info already available on this site.

**GoKohlerGo** · 02-24-2013, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by ttabbal

I'm curious if anyone has tried the Champion Pro and if so, have they improved on any of the common complaints?

I'm pretty well convinced to go with the Toto Drake 2, but ran into that one and thought it might have solved some of the issues. It kind of looks like they added their version of Sanigloss and a bowl wash setup, which the Drake 2 already has at a similar price. I'm leaning toward the Drake as it seems to be more reliable overall from reports here and elsewhere and the 4" valve from AS is custom, so parts are harder to get if you need them, and it sounds like you will. It also seems a little like the race to have more blades on a razor, mostly marketing. I know the crew here is more into Toto (sounds like there are good reasons), but the information might be useful for others searching for data on the Pro model. All I can really find is marketing stuff from AS. The Google is not with me today, it seems. Or people just don't buy them, not a good sign.

Unfortunately, it looks like I'll have to order either of them online. I'm going to dig and call around, but the main local plumbing supply house wants about $500 for the Drake 2, according to their website. Amazon has it for <$300 and I have Prime, so free 2 day shipping. I'm willing to buy local when they are remotely competitive, but that's a little much. I'm a little concerned about shipping damage for a fragile item like this, but reviews look pretty good for the Toto packaging.

Thanks to everyone here for the great info already available on this site.

The Champion Pro is not the same as the champion 4, so the complaints probably aren't the same. Plus, they started making them back in early-mid 2012. It will have the 4" flush valve, and it probably won't wear out for a few years. I had an American Standard toilet from the 1980's and it still had the original flapper when we replaced it this year. If you are looking for a bigger trapway, go for the Champion Pro. It also has a better bowl wash than the Champion 4 so it is better. If you are looking for the best bowl wash you can get, go for the Drake II. Even though the Champion Pro and the Drake II have about equal bowl wash, I feel that the Drake II has just a touch better. Hope this helps!

**ttabbal** · 02-24-2013, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by GoKohlerGo

The Champion Pro is not the same as the champion 4, so the complaints probably aren't the same. Plus, they started making them back in early-mid 2012. It will have the 4" flush valve, and it probably won't wear out for a few years. I had an American Standard toilet from the 1980's and it still had the original flapper when we replaced it this year. If you are looking for a bigger trapway, go for the Champion Pro. It also has a better bowl wash than the Champion 4 so it is better. If you are looking for the best bowl wash you can get, go for the Drake II. Even though the Champion Pro and the Drake II have about equal bowl wash, I feel that the Drake II has just a touch better. Hope this helps!

Thanks for the info. It's very helpful. I'm glad I found such a good source of information in this forum.

It seems like the trapway size, like most things, will have a point of diminishing returns. Are we hitting that at the sizes available today? Just wondering if it's really helpful in the real world to go bigger past the Drake. The difference is pretty small.....

**wjcandee** · 02-24-2013, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by ttabbal

Thanks for the info. It's very helpful. I'm glad I found such a good source of information in this forum.

It seems like the trapway size, like most things, will have a point of diminishing returns. Are we hitting that at the sizes available today? Just wondering if it's really helpful in the real world to go bigger past the Drake. The difference is pretty small.....

For 95 percent of the populace, there's no reason to go bigger than the Drake. Only people with certain conditions that (forgive me) produce large, unusually-hard stools can be aided by a bigger trapway, and for that Terry recommends the Caroma.

The Champion actually only has a 3" hole in the china where the flush valve goes. They put the funnelator thingy on there to try to market a bigger flush valve, but it isn't. I have yet to see any actual scientific information that would support the idea that water flows better through a 3" hole with a 4" funnel on top than it does through a 3" hole with no such funnel. The proven Drake flapper system continues to work well and reliably, and is cheaply and easily replaced, unlike the Champion 4's seal, which some people have no trouble replacing, and others find flummoxing.

**jadnashua** · 02-24-2013, 06:47 PM

It's the engineering that's important. The bigger the flapper valve, the more water pressure pushing down on the thing, and the sooner it fails unless you reinforce it lots more, which means extra costs, either for the first one, or when you have to periodically (more often than a 'normal' one) replace it. When everyone went from the old monster flushes to the 3.5g ones, they often just reduced the amount of water flow without changing the design. THat was still enough to work okay in some cases. Then, when the requirements dropped to 1.6g, they did the same thing and those that didn't re-engineer things ended up with toilets that were real dogs. Terry said he had a tour of the Kohler factory when this was discussed...they went to a 4" for the bragging rights, not because it was necessary. Kohler tends to have the not invented here disease and likes to do things their own way, regardless of whether it's a good idea or not!

**Gary Swart** · 02-24-2013, 10:02 PM

Mr. GoKohlerGo, I thought your were going to "resign" from this forum.

**GoKohlerGo** · 02-25-2013, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by Gary Swart

Mr. GoKohlerGo, I thought your were going to "resign" from this forum.

Well, I thought I was, but I think I just won't post as much.

**wptski** · 02-25-2013, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by GoKohlerGo

Well, I thought I was, but I think I just won't post as much.

It's refreshing to see a post made without the word Toto in it!

**GoKohlerGo** · 02-25-2013, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by wptski

It's refreshing to see a post made without the word Toto in it!

The thread I started, called "I HATE TOTO!", was never meant to be a thread. It was meant to be just a post. I personally, still do not like Toto at all though.

**KC2WE** · 03-03-2013, 11:44 AM

I just installed a Champion 4 - 1.28 GPF today and it performs just as good as the 1.6 GPF Champion installed in 2010 in another bath in our home. Although I'm not a plumber and just a homeowner, I'm a EE and had a Red Seal license in NJ at one time (who says electrcity & water don't mix), so I've done some pipe fitting here and there. In my opinion, both the 1.28 and the 1.6 work without a flaw. Since I've had the 1.6 GPF toilet from 2010, we threw out the various hand plungers around the house, 'cause with this one you don't need 'em. Water savings here in NJ is not an issue; it seems at times we have too much water. Anyway, I'd rate both very high. Never had a failure on the 1.6 GPF. I guess they stopped making the 1.6 and now the 1.28 is latest requirement, but not sure. Comparing the two will tell if there's any difference in performance in the coming weeks.

**Terry** · 03-03-2013, 12:35 PM

The thread I started, called "I HATE TOTO!", was never meant to be a thread. It was meant to be just a post. I personally, still do not like Toto at all though.
GoKohlerGo

I'm not a hater.
I like people and things. I do have preferences on things.

By the way, my son Jamie and I are having dinner with some folks we know from Kohler in Seattle Monday night.

From left to right. My son James Love, Terry Love, Jennifer Nye (Kohler), Brian Hedlund (Kohler) at Anthony's Pier 66 in Seattle.

They had Kohler plumbing fixtures in my hotel in Jaipur, India
I heard they were doing more business there.

Kohler Wall Hung Toilet with bidet spray on side wall.

Kohler Bath tub

This pool on our private deck was nice.

**GoKohlerGo** · 03-03-2013, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Terry

I'm not a hater.
I like people and things. I do have preferences.

By the way, my son Jamie and I are having dinner with some folks we know from Kohler in Seattle Monday night.

They had Kohler plumbing fixtures in my hotel in Jaipur, India
I heard they were doing more business there.

Kohler Wall Hung Toilet with bidet spray on side wall.

Kohler Bath tub

This pool on our private deck was nice.

That is very cool. I sincerely apologize for the ''I HATE TOTO!'' post. I have anger issues, and am taking medicine for it. Sometimes it just comes out of nowhere, and later I look back at it like ''What was I thinking?''. I don't actually hate Toto, I am just not a big fan of it. Sorry about the post!