Reply With QuoteI just bought a Champ 4 at HD, and after reading this thread, I am considering returning it. Without reading all of this thread, what is the latest suggestion? Are the issues resolved, or is the AS Champ a POS?
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My plan is to have the flooring guys who are putting in tile, take a first attempt at installing the new toilets, then consider a plumber if they cannot. In either case, is there any advise on what I should inspect closely so that I get a quality installation done?Originally Posted by wjcandee
I just bought a Champ 4 at HD, and after reading this thread, I am considering returning it. Without reading all of this thread, what is the latest suggestion? Are the issues resolved, or is the AS Champ a POS?
There's a tutorial on installing toilets here on the website. Check that out.
But, basically, the toilet must NOT rock once set down - it may need shims. The toilet flange is designed to sit on TOP of the FINISHED floor, and be anchored through it into the subflooring. Many end up below or even with the floor, but that takes special actions - thicker or stacked wax rings, to ensure it creates a good seal. Always use a new supply hose, and if the old shutoff is a multi-turn one, replace it with a quarter-turn ball valve.
Jim DeBruycker
Important note - I'm not a pro
Retired Defense Industry Engineer
The design is okay, and if you get a good one, it is a viable product. I prefer others that you don't have to check as closely and have a better chance of getting a defect free one (defects include both cosmetic and structural).
Jim DeBruycker
Important note - I'm not a pro
Retired Defense Industry Engineer
What would be an equal with proven quality?
It's obvious you haven't read lots on this site! People, myself included, like Toto products (the largest toilet maker in the world with a factory in Georgia, USA). The Toto Drake is a nice toilet at a decent price comparable to the Champion. There are lots others with different style which could be a good choice if it fits your design.
Jim DeBruycker
Important note - I'm not a pro
Retired Defense Industry Engineer
AMERICAN STANDARD toilets (CHAMPION 4, CADET 3 and ETC.)
DON'T buy any AMERICAN STANDARD toilets (CHAMPION 4, CADET 3 and ETC.) that uses the cheaply made 3" flush valve that's made by WDI in China. Its seal bubbles up and flat rubber piece is warped because they use cheap rubber materials. WDI lies to American Standard all the time (I have people that are working for WDI said they DO NOT trust their own products). I wonder why American Standard switched to FluidMaster now.
We use mostly Kohler at our shop. I'm not a big fan of the AmStan products currently.
Last edited by 4thGenerationPlumber; 12-28-2012 at 05:44 AM.
I have used a Champion 4 and quite frankly, I don't think it is all that bad. I have flushed a lot of toilet paper down it and it performs quite well. I know that 80% of the claims why people don't like them was because of the old flush tower. With the new accelerator flush valve it does not leak. And believe me, I have put it to the test. I flushed about 50 feet of TP down and it just ate it like it was nothing. I am getting one for my outside testing in the summer.
Flushing was never the issue with the Champion. Originally it was the flush tower as you mentioned. Now it's the quality of the Vitreous China! They send out all kinds of defective bowls with all kinds of weird stuff going on, like severe bowl lean (this happened to me, never attempting to get a Champion 4 to test again!), the design of the bowl makes it overly heavy, and clunky to handle during installation. The tank and seat bolts are nearly impossible to get to. Because of the giant tank to bowl gasket it requires nearly busting the tank to get it close to touching the bowl.
For less then the price of a Champion 4 I suggest getting your hands on a Gerber Avalanche, Toto Drake, A-S Cadet Pro, or Kohler Wellworth (not the Wellworth Classic at the big box)
Ok, but does ANYONE here recommend it? Does anyone recommend ANYTHING other than TOTO? I like the Champion and in the summer I will try to put it in it's place and clog it with washcloths, paper towels, toilet paper, etc. Videos of it flushing will be coming in the summer on my youtube page. P.S: here is a video of an older champion I found. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzq_PPpFOxQ
The material the testing agencies us is plastic wrapped paste, fairly short, and not too big in diameter. The real stuff comes in lots more sizes and consistencies. So, what gets great scores on the tests has little to do with reality. The quality of the design and EXECUTION then comes into play as to how well it works overall. AS has not had the QA/QC in line with Toto, and in some areas, their design is not as good. Do they work? Certainly. Do they work for everyone, no toilet does. Do they have compromises? Certainly, all of them are compromised in some area or the other. Who has made 'better' decisions on products and execution, I think Toto has. Will you be dissatisfied with an AS product, many people aren't, some are. Your results will vary. For often a similar price, my bet is on Toto for a more reliable product that performs well (street price, not retail).
Jim DeBruycker
Important note - I'm not a pro
Retired Defense Industry Engineer
I have had mine 3 months or so. No issues here, and a good price on sale at HD.
Nobody has said it doesn't flush.
They may have said things like
poor casting or finish,
heavy and bulky,
Takes up space
Hard to find parts
But does it move water? Nobody on this thread as said it doesn't. At least not the new 4.
The original had a problem with the cam wearing in and not dropping enough water, but that contraption has been changed out.
You can get the same performance in a smaller package, the Cadet 3
Most plumbers would prefer installing a Cadet 3 over the Champion.
We built a house a couple of years ago and installed three Champion fours(new tower ). One leaked from the beginning, and the plumber fixed it. The other two recently started a steady drip/refill. leaking at the flush valve. I replaced the blue seal with the red Corky seal from HD, but they still just drip drip drip. A can't figure out for the life of me why they drip----the seal and valve seat all look good.
Are these toilets haunted? Will American Std. replace whatever it is which needs replacing?
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