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I installed the new flush valve and noticed a plastic insert thats coming apart in the base where the tank connects to the base. Is this piece supposed to be in there, or should it have been removed, when the toilet was installed? Looking at my reciept we've had this thing sence 2003, and it's never worked as all the hype. Now with the new flush valve it's worse than before.
The plastic insert is supposed to be in there.
The first Champion I installed had that too. I've always wondered when that thin plastic was going to start disintegrating when you started to introduce chlorinated water.
1. To become reduced to components, fragments, or particles.
Last edited by Terry; 08-19-2012 at 10:19 AM.
Thanks Gary for your comment.Originally Posted by Gary Swart
I guess AS can't make your message any clearer, on the top of the FluidMaster fill valve is engraved a warning against using chlorine bleach cleaners in the tank.
I used those pucks for about 10 years in my old Cadet without any leaks or malfunctions.
And when my recent toxic gas attack occurred in the dried out Cadet tank, it was the plastic fill valve casing which took the hit much harder than the other plastic and rubber parts.
In any case, I accept that these pucks do indeed erode the tank components.
Too bad, since as a bowl cleaning aid, they work marvelously.
After nearly 3 weeks of use, my new Champion 4 one piece is holding up. Occasionally need to flush twice for solid matter, but that's the only drawback noted so far.
AS Champion 4 Flapper closes too fast
I just bought my AS Champion 4 (Dec 1 2011). So far it flushes great with no issues. My only complaint is that in order to get it to do what I would consider a full flush, you have to keep holding the handle for an extra couple of seconds because that large flapper always wants to slam shut pretty quickly. Is there any way to modify the unit to keep the flapper from closing so fast?
If you hold the handle down for a few seconds when flushing, that keeps the flush valve from closing as quickly. You won't however get the full tank to empty in doing so, but more water will exit the tank than if you just quickly flip the handle.
I can't imagine a modification that would get the flush valve to stay open longer given the way the valve is designed.
I often find that I have to flush twice in order to purge any residual solid waste that failed to exit on the first attempt. In these cases, holding the handle longer does not really help, only by flushing twice.
I accept this as a consequence of owning a low volume flush toilet.
The only compensation is that the tank can refill in 28 seconds due to a lower amount of water lost per flush.
Of course I will have to explain this to my guests.
Last edited by montreal; 12-06-2011 at 09:21 AM.
The toilet flush system is just that, a system...it was certified to use a specific amount of water per flush. Now, if you need to regularly use more, is that a good system? IMHO, no. The fact it doesn't clog is only one factor in whether a toilet is good or not. No modern toilet is designed to empty its tank...that extra water is there to provide some head pressure to that that does get used.
There are other toilets out that that consistently clear the bowl with one flush, as designed, and some of them can do it with 1.28g, not the 1.6. It's not the lower flow, it's all about design and quality of construction.
Jim DeBruycker
Important note - I'm not a pro
Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013
I'm in the market for a new toilet and my selection has boiled down to the Toto and American Standard. The Toto is more expensive and it's more difficult to find locally as it is not available from the big box stores. I also don't know which one is better the, Ultramax 1.6 which I assume has a better bowl wash due to flushing more water or the Ultramax II 1.28 which has an updated flushing technology. I would probably prefer the Carlyle because of the double cyclone technology but it's beyond my reach on the cost.
as for the AS Champion 4, I see that the two-piece version has quality issues but I haven't really read much about real world experiences of those who own the one-piece Champion 4 from American Standard. Because it's priced better and it's more readily available than the Toto i'm leaning towards it. Can anyone post a review of their one-piece AS Champion 4?
Last edited by esquire415; 12-27-2011 at 01:49 PM.
I'm currently researching my options to replace a kohler 1.6 gpf toilet that never really worked well. The tank is marked T82 K4512 20265 KB5 and 9 5 95 (wellworth?). It's an oval bowl with the flush lever on the side. After having the handles break repeatedly I've been using a string tied to the chain to flush.
As I say, it never flushed right. Often when flushing the water would just swirl the toilet paper around the bowl. Sometimes it flushed ok but often it didn't. It did better with the string than it did with the lever but still not that great. I now have a clog I can't clear, and my guess is my 92 year old grandmother may have dropped something in the toilet and plugged it up. I tried using a coat hanger to clear it and pulled out a couple clumps of hair but it's still not right. She has dementia and several obsessive habits, one of them involves her hand in her hair.
Anyway, after some preliminary searching I came across the Champion 4. I figured the larger diameter would reduce the potential for blockage and was all set to go buy one but decided to search for reviews and opinions about it and as a result found this forum. Thanks to this forum and other reviews I have decided to buy a TOTO product. I'm not sure which model yet but after visiting their website I found a TOTO dealer less than six miles away. I had never seen the TOTO brand prior to a recent emergency room visit for my grandmother due to an ischemic attack. The bathroom at the end of the hallway near the examination room had a TOTO toilet and it stuck in my mind because I'd never seen that label before.
Out of curiosity I looked at the wikipedia entries on TOTO and American Standard (and the 2007 split, formation of Trane air conditioning and the sale of the plumbing division to an equity group. Thanks to all of this info I will never buy another American Standard product. The situation with AS products is sad. The upstairs bathroom has an old AS toilet with the tank marked F-4049 and T-70 that still works great. Out of curiosity I'm trying to figure out when it was manufactured. It is definitely not a "low flow".
We live in an area that only receives water bills due to the deal that provided the land to build the nearby treatment plant and the water bills are very low (less than $30/quarter) so water use is less important than for many other areas.
Last edited by tekwyzrd; 12-28-2011 at 11:27 AM.
I've got personal experience with Toto Drakes, a Vespin, and a Carlyle (all the 'original' versions, not the II). I've been quite happy with their operation. As with my older toilets, our local water means I have to replace the flapper valves every 4-5 years, but other than that, they've not needed anything, and the plunger has stayed holed away in the basement. Some of the water savings between the 1.6 and the 1.28g flushers was from recalibrated fill valves to more closely match the needs of the tank and the bowl. Older toilets tended to overfill the bowl, and that water did nothing to aid the flush and it only went down the drain after the actual flush was completed, but was counted in the quantity of water used during a flush.
As to AS, if you get one without a defect, it can work well. Terry has noted that his return rate on Toto is less than 1%; some other brands are MUCH higher. The big box stores, from hearsay evidence on AS stuff, says you have a bigger likelyhood of getting a bad one at a big box store than at a plumbing supply shop. A DIY'er may not recognize a defect that a plumber would.
Jim DeBruycker
Important note - I'm not a pro
Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013
I just wanted to chime in on the AS Champion 4. I bought it because the MaP rating by CA (http://www.cuwcc.org/MaPTesting.aspx) rated it very well on flushing capability. Our older 1.6 gpf toilets clogged several times per week, so that was my main concern.
I own 2, installed about 6 months apart. One was the older tools-required install, the other the newer tool-less. Both are ADA height, elongated, which I feel is more comfortable. The tool-less install toilet also included a soft-close seat, which I thought was goofy, but is nice especially for kids who tend to slam things. But in general, I much preferred the tool-less install. I guess I follow old advice and I don't caulk the bowl to floor like the instructions say. I think there is some variation in the AS C4 bowls, so I'd test it on a flat surface before install to make sure you don't have any wobble problems.
I think I've owned my oldest one for about 2 years. Never had any problems other than needing to shim it due to bowl wobble. Both use Fluidmaster fill valves (the first 100 posts in this thread are all complains about leaking fill valves) and I haven't had any problem with it. Fluidmaster valves can be found just about anywhere. The only hard parts to find would be the "flapper" since the whole thing lifts vertically to help provide the pressure. Maybe some of the handle parts would be hard to find as well. Home Depot carries Cadet 3 parts now, not sure when C4 specific parts will show up. They aren't designed to be quiet, but I wouldn't say they are excessively loud or anything. Maybe a bit above average on flush noise.
I also noticed some complaints in this thread about the tank attachment to the bowl having problems, leaks or being loose. Both of my toilets were pretty straight forward to attach the tank. Much like other toilets, but this tank starts out about an inch about the bowl, you just keep tightening until the actual tank touches the bowl like the instructions say. I wouldn't recommend leaning back on the tank.
2 years of constant use by a 3 person family. 0 clogs (I don't even know where our plunger is anymore). 0 leaks. Planning on buying my third for our basement bathroom remodel.
Last edited by Terry; 08-19-2012 at 10:20 AM.
Just wanted to see if anyone else has had a problem with the tank bolts on a Champion toilet. We installed a customers toilets (Champion 4's) and the rubber washers under the tank bolts are so soft they squeezed out and loosened themselves to the point of leaking. And they are steel bolts which is bad. It came from HD I think. I suggested TOTO which is what I use.
Problems with AS #4266
I wish I had found this forum before I purchased the AS Champion toilet. Having the same problems as others describe: Leaking flush vlave.
Have not contacted customre service yet... trying to decide if a remedy is worth the trouble, or just go get the Toto that is so highly rated in this forum.
We had this installed in 2009 and it was fine for a couple of years,then it started to leak at the seal. Four inches is a lot of area for a flat seal to handle and it had blisters forming on it. I instaled a new Korky brand seal sold at the home depot and it seems to be working fine now. You do not want to over tight'en the seal tho. I tight'ened it till i heard one click from the black screw that holds it together. You can listen and see if you can hear any dripping and twik it from there if you have to. It's very touchy. Good luck.
Lynn L
Most reviews I have seen of the Korky seal indicate that it works well and appears to last longer than the AS original (no blisters). A guy posted here on another thread with a picture of his blistered AS blue seal after six months, and said that he had installed the Korky seal two years ago as a replacement and that it was still working fine.
I have an American Standard Champion toilet (tank 4260, from 2004) and it is leaking from one of the tank-to-bowl bolts. Cannot find any details on what to use for a replacement washer for the bolt (or complete bolt/washer/nut). Home Depot was no help - the Fluidmaster tank-to-bowl bolt kits do not indicate any compatibility with any toilet makes/models/etc. The existing bolt or nut is rusting (steel?!!) so I'm concerned about tightening it and having it completely fail. Any suggestions?
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