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Thread: American Standard Champion 4 toilet review and pictures

  1. #16
    DIY Junior Member t-rex's Avatar
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    Default Champion 4 toilets

    I just purchsed 2 of these from Lowe's to replace some terrible Gerber's that were clogging just about every day. The new Champion 4 design seems to work very well and I couldn't be more pleased, but it's only been two weeks. The plunger has been moved to the garage storage room.

    As far as the install, I didn't think it was bad at all. I have installed maybe 4 or 5 toilets before, and I didn't think these were any more difficult than normal. Took about an hour to remove and replace each one. If you don't own a socket set, you should probably question if you should be replacing your own toilet anyway. I can't imagine that a good plumber would have difficulty with these.

    As far as looks, it is way better than the Toto Drakes I had installed in my previous home. They were too small in my opinion and looked like something you might install in a child's bathroom. The tank looked so dinky against the wall and set away from the wall about 3-4 inches. This basically negated any advantage you might think you get with a smaller footprint because the edge of the bowl was still about the same distance from the wall as a "normal" size toilet like the Champion 4. The Champion 4 has a nice, full size tank that fits right up next to the wall with a 12" rough-in.

    Because I have owned both, I can also say that they flush of the Champion 4 is superior to that of the Drake. Don't get me wrong, the Drake was excellent, this one is just better. It's like the bottom just drops out of the toilet and everything is gone. Seems to have excellent bowl wash as well.

    Maintenance will be the determining factor and only time will tell on that. If I just have to replace a couple of seals every 2-3 years like i would have to replace the flapper on the Drake, I will be very happy with my purchase. Oh, and did I mention that the Champion 4 is about $100 cheaper than the Drake and has a 10 year warranty?

    I just thought someone might be looking for an updated opinion on these new toilets since a lot of the same people seem to be bashing the old design that was obviously flawed.

  2. #17
    DIY Junior Member DIY Duder's Avatar
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    Default American Standard Champion 4

    Quote Originally Posted by mastas View Post
    I **WISH** I googled champion4 toilet before I decided to buy this piece of crap. I've replaced a bunch of toilets, most of them being with the cheapos costing around a $100, and they are still going strong after years. I bought this model back in March of this year. No more than 4 months later, I started hearing the toilet cycle constantly. I didn't have time to mess with it all summer until now.

    What I can't believe is this problem still prevails in 2009.
    This is my toilet purches/review/install etc story.
    I never installed a toilet before, and the bathroom I did the install was not working for a few years. It was on the second floor and the last toilet had sprung a leak while the door was closed and we didn't see the leak until it was in the garage. So a lot of work now. I needed to fix the problem before I could paint and fix the spots in the walls that were saturated.

    When I started shopping for a toilet I just wanted to get something that was cheep, would work well, and be efficient (I'm replacing an old 3.5gpf American standard that's 45 years old) because I have a tight budget. After much consideration I went with the Champion 4. Now here were my reasons incase your thinking the same thing.

    This site was not that helpful to me. Neither was Consumer Reports (who gave this toilet the highest rating). Unfortunately if you look on this site you'll get one thing from the "master plumbers" and that's "Toto drake", or some other $400 toilet that's way out of many peoples price range. Not only that but it has to be my scam radar that goes off when I see those prices. It leaves me asking "It's a toilet! How can you screw up a piece of ceramic?" And then read the reviews and they don't always help. My brother had a Mansfield alto, had it 3 years, and never had a problem. According to Terry "I replace more of them then any other toilet" How is it failing for all these people terry mentions and works fine for the only two I have experience with? Not to mention, I've even herd complaints about the Drake on this very thread! So you don't have to go far for criticism.

    Now, on with the champion 4. All that other stuff will come full circle. Got it home from HD and took it out of the box. Everything looked to be correct except I couldn't understand what the plastic insert marked "do not remove" was for? Long story short, don't take it out when you install your tank. lol Now most of the criticism I've herd about the champion line is for the flush valve and is on the older model, but on the new model its about a wobbly tank. And I couldn't agree more! That's BS! It's ceramic, make it right! Not that hard. So I put the foam/rubber gasket on that goes between the bowl and tank. Now anyone that's done this with this toilet will know it's too thick! When I called AS, the girl (I wonder if she's ever installed one) told me to keep the insert in, and about the tank she said "You can't ever have china on china. If you tighten it then it can crack. We've had many customers call worried that they will crack the bowl, but just tighten it down till it touches the ribs on the back and stop." I told her "I can't get it that close. It's already super tight and I feel like it's going to crack now!" She didn't have anything more to say. Now I've read someone on this site that busted one just tightening like she said. So it still wobbled and was already super tight and not touching the bowl. I'm not a perfectionist but WTF? It's totally obvious that gasket is way to thick. The operation of the toilet was good other then the wobble but it still pissed me off and I was still concerned about how tight the tank was already. I felt the pressure being applied to the tank by the gasket could still possibly bust the tank at some time in the future and I didn't feel safe with it. If your not home and that tank cracks and your on the top floor like me, BIG TROUBLE, like what I described before.

    Now I would not recommend this AT ALL! TO ANYONE! lol But since I had already set the bowl I wasn't sure if I wanted to take it back, if they would give me a hard time about a return, I actually took the gasket downstairs to my woodworking shop and used my router with a flat horizontal bit used for make for grooves cabinets and shaved off 3/32" from the inside of the gasket where the large nut presses on the tank. (I provided a picture. You can see the tiny spot where there is a lower level towards the corner.) I wouldn't just cut it, I think it needs to be machined smooth. If your crazy enough to do that, which I don't recommend, remember you have to go so so so slow when cutting. Its rubber and the metal will want to grip it and shred it, if you loose it....... sorry. Wait weeks for a new one. That's why I don't recommend it (not to mention the safety risks). What I would recommend is, don't buy this toilet. I trusted American Standard because we've had them in this house for almost half a century and had almost no problems with them. When I put the gasket back on, Bingo! Went down nice and snug and had proper tight feel in the nuts, wobbles gone. (BTW I put plastic washers behind the metal nuts AS wants you to crank against the china, they were the plastic flange washers used to hold up the bolts when you seat the bowl.) I don't have anything against AS, but I don't understand why they would manufacture something that is so obviously too thick?
    As for now, it works great! Strong flushes, no leaks, easy to clean... Works Great! Iíll post up in a couple months and tell you all if anything arises. American Standard, everyone doesn't have a workshop in their basement! Please fix that!

    I also posted a YouTube video for all of you to check out so you can get a visual on what Iím talking about.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member KidHorn's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyV View Post
    Just wanted to share my experience with assembling the 2-piece American Standard Champion 4. Bought it at Lowe's and installed it earlier this week (Dec 2008).

    1. Install the toilet seat BEFORE you set the bowl in place. Do it with the bowl lying on its side. This makes it possible to tighten down the one "hidden" nut that's very hard to get at. I had to use a "bare" socket (no wrench attached) to tighten that hidden nut.
    2. Yes, when you first set the tank on the bowl, the gasket seems WAY too thick. But it will come together, if you just take your time.
    3. Don't use that shoddy tool that Am Std includes. Use a socket wrench to tighten the tank-to-bowl bolts.
    4. Tighten each bolt alternately, maybe two or three turns at a time. You won't need another person to "throw all their weight onto the tank as you tighten". But you may need to gently press down on the side of the tank that you're tightening.
    5. Using the socket wrench, you will feel when you've tightened as far as you ought to (don't force it!). I was able to get the tank to contact the front ribs on the bowl, but had to stop tightening before I got contact with the back ribs. There was perhaps a 1/4" gap remaining between the tank and the back ribs. But that's OK, because the tank does not wobble at all, the gasket is well-compressed and leak free, and the top of the tank is level enough.
    6. After the gasket has "set" for a while (a few weeks?), it may be possible to go back and tighten the bolts further, and bring the tank down to the back ribs. But if it doesn't leak, I see no reason to have to do that.
    7. The flush is good and there's a reassuring (but quiet) "thunk" to it.
    8. I'll keep a watchful eye and hope the flush valve doesn't begin leaking, as so many have reported. This is one of three toilets in our house, so it won't see a tremendous amount of duty, but I wanted to have at least one good flusher as the "go-to" unit, if you know what I mean.

    Thanks to all on this forum for your advice.
    I just installed a Champion 4 and had the same experience. I only tightened as much as was required to close the front gap. The tank leans forward a little, but as long as it works. I didn't install the toilet seat first, but it wasn't that difficult.

    So far, no leaks and nothing but awesome flushes. It's only been a couple of days though.

  4. #19
    DIY Junior Member Elton Noway's Avatar
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    Default No Complaints... Yet...

    Quote Originally Posted by mastas View Post
    I **WISH** I googled champion4 toilet before I decided to buy this piece of crap. I bought this model back in March of this year. No more than 4 months later, I started hearing the toilet cycle constantly.
    On the flip side "I Did" Google the Champion 4. I was shopping for a new toilet in conjunction with gutting a bathroom for a total makeover. My first stop was the Consumer Reports magazine where I discovered in August of this year they rated the Champion 4 as the Number One Top Rated toilet! Imagine my surprise when I Googled it and found so many negative comments, i.e., piece of crap, junk, inferior product, constantly needing repair, tank leaks, tank wobbles, wish I could get my money back, extremely loud (wakes up my deaf cat)... etc., etc.

    So... what did I do? I purchased one anyway! Why? Here's the deal.

    As the story goes... when a person receives poor service at a restaurant or some other establishment they may tell as many as 10 people. However, when they receive good service they tell very few people about it. I decided all the negative comments on the Champion 4 complaints were from people with bad experiences and that the people that who liked the toilet or have had no problems would have had no reason to write a review. I also noticed a lot of complaints in these threads were on the Champion 3 and/or did not specify which Champion model they were complaining about. Also many of these threads are several years old, or are recent threads complaining about a Champion that was installed a year or two ago. I wanted information on 2009 Champion 4! I found this thread saying the toilet was purchased in March 2009! Hmmm... but I began to wonder it may have been purchased in March 2009... but when was it made? (more on this later)

    Granted... I'll be the first to admit the Champion 4 has had its share of serious problems. Had I purchased one of the earlier models I'd be very upset. The poor design of the original flush tower, faulty seals, poor quality control during manufacturing (cracks, chips, poor glazing etc) the "reported", near impossible task of bolting the tank to the bowl due to a poorly designed tank seal... and the class action lawsuit were all red flags.

    I should point out I am not a professional plumber. If I were I probably wouldn't install this toilet due to its history and to minimize the potential for dealing with unhappy customers. I am... a Handyman! I have completely gutted and flipped 14 houses (long before it was the thing to do) I do it all, plumbing, electrical, framing, cabinets, sheetrock, roofing etc. I've installed "dozens" of toilets. It's not rocket science but to the novice it can be a daunting task.

    Quote Originally Posted by mastas View Post
    What I can't believe is this problem still prevails in 2009.
    I wondered about this as well! Shouldn't the known problems have been resolved by now? So... armed with all my knowledge of the myriad of problems and/or defects I went to my local home improvement store. (Several of them in fact) Why several stores? Because my first course of action was to determine the date of manufacturer! If AS fixed the problems associated with earlier designs I wanted to make sure I got a new 2009 model. My first stop, a local Home Depot. The first box I checked had a AS sticker identifying the Date of Manufacture as May 2007! Holy crap! If I purchased that toilet it would make no difference that its was now almost 2010... I'd probably join the ranks of people posting complaints. Any design changes or improvements to the QC process implemented by American Standard after May 2007 would be missing from this model. They also had two in stock from June 2008. (none from 2009) The reason for mentioning this is... just because a person purchases a toilet in 2009 doesn't mean its the newest design with all the bugs worked out. NET: I ended up going to both Lowes and Home Depot before I hit the jackpot at the second Home Depot. I found a Champion 4 with a date of manufacture Oct 20 2009! It was less than one month old from the time I purchased it!

    Upon getting it home I removed the tank and bowl. I first examined the bowl to verify the date of manufacturer. The box said Oct 25 2009... the underside of the bowl (left side just forward of the hole where the tank bolts to the bowl) you will find the date of manufacture. Date stamped Oct 20 2009. Close enough for me! (the 5 day difference would be the lag between the casting date and the ship date from the plant). I then closely inspected for any chips, cracks, or factory repairs that some people claim to have found. I found none! I then used my hand running my fingertips over every square inch of ceramic glazing. Other member have reported weak or missing glaze from portions of the toilet. This would be a disaster if the glaze was missing from anywhere inside the bowl. I then covered my hand with a thin piece of cloth and again rubbed over all the surfaces feeling for snags, ruff/dry spots... (FYI: Many years ago I ran a ceramics shop. Made thousands of slip castings, had several kilns, did tons of glazing and firings so I know what to look for. I was very pleased with how the greenware (pre-fired clay) had been cleaned and smoothed before firing. I only found one small speck (a grain of dirt or sand) trapped under the glaze up near the top of the rim inside the bowl. It was smooth so it won't trap particles. Not a problem.

    I then inspected the flush valve: 1) To ensure it had the new grey tower design... and 2) to ensure it had the new "Blue" seal. I saw no signs of blistering or bubbles on the seal (although that problem seems to be reported after the toilet has been in service for a while) I will watch closely and report back with an update if I detect any type of seal failure.

    Okay... everything checked out so I preceded with the installation. To be truthful I didn't find the installation to be any more difficult or troublesome than any other toilet I've installed. Yes, you need a deep socket to attach the tank to the bowl but one was included with the toilet so I don't understand all the whining about having to use a deep socket.

    My next dreaded obstacle was the HUGE tank to bowl o-ring seal everyone likes to complain about... and/or... the dreaded "Tank Wobble"). After reading numerous threads and complaints about the two it became obvious that one effects the other. Yes... the gasket is super thick. (I couldn't help but wonder why a thinner silicone gasket wouldn't be just as good) Anyway... if you don't tighten the tank until it contacts the bowl then the rubber gasket will allow the tank to wobble. (DUH!) I even read the earlier thread about modifying the gasket with a router. Although I own several routers I figure the seal was designed this way for a reason (although it escapes me) and I was going to use it as designed or bust the toilet trying! As mentioned by others, American Standard customer service says the only way to prevent the wobble and leaks is to tightened the tank so it contacts the bowl "front and back". Response: "Don't worry about the tank or bowl breaking, just tighten the bolts evenly until the tank and bowl surfaces touch, then stop."

    Believe it or not, using only my bare hand to grip the deep socket wrench included with the toilet... I was able to tighten the nuts enough to establish contact between the tank and the front of the bowl. However, the back of the tank was still about 3/8" away from making contact and I could no longer turn the wrench by hand. Using the hole in the deep socket I inserted a screwdriver for additional leverage. I alternated the tightening from left to right. I was determined to pull the tank down until it came in contact with the toilet bowl as instructed or until it busted into pieces. I can tell you it was getting very tight so I stopped to put on some safety glasses. I felt I was tightening the bolts beyond where I would have normally stopping in fear of breaking the toilet. But... a couple more turns on each nut and Bingo, I had tank to bowl contact, front and back!

    Let me tell you (regardless of what you may have read in other threads)... if you tighten until the tank touches the bowl front and back there is NO TANK WOBBLE... NONE! (It feels as solid as some one piece toilets I've installed) That said, I don't care for convex curve of the tank. It encroaches the upper back when sitting, forcing you to sit straight up.

    Based on all the bad stuff I've read about this toilet I crossed my fingers as I turned on the water. Nothing. The tank filled and the water shut off crisply and completely. No leaking valve. No refilling. No leaks. No flooded floors! Tank filled I held my breath as I flushed my Champion 4 for the first time. I was waiting for the "Deafening Ear Splitting Klunk" I've read so much about. I had my phone by my side in the event my neighbors called to find out what the loud bang was. Yes... I was expecting the worse. I pushed the handle and whoosh, phoomp. That's it? Are you kidding me! I don't know what other people are hearing with their Champion 4's but mine is one quiet toilet! The sound of the valve dropping closed is a soft muted "frump"... like someone dropping a pillow in the next room.

    The toilet has now been installed for 7 days. I've done my impersonation of Uncle Floyd and his 300 pounds slamming into the tank as he drops down to the seat. If it was going to break I wanted to break it now so I could claim it broke while I was tightening the bolts. Nothing broke.. and still no leaks.

    NET:
    No defects in toilet or glazed ceramic finish
    No leaks of any kind.
    No Wobbly Tank
    No loud Klunk when flushing
    No problems
    I find it to be a great toilet and it does a super job flushing.

    That said... as mentioned earlier... I'll be sure to update this thread if problems of any kind develop. Believe me I can complain with the best of them.
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  5. #20
    DIY Junior Member Robot's Avatar
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    Default 6 months- no complaints

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Noway View Post
    No defects in toilet or glazed ceramic finish
    No leaks of any kind.
    No Wobbly Tank
    No loud Klunk when flushing
    No problems
    I find it to be a great toilet and it does a super job flushing.
    Same story here except I was afraid to torque down the tank all the way; I'm about 1/4" off in the back, but no wobble so I'll probably leave it alone.

    I look at web reviews the same way; most of them will be negative because people who don't have problems don't bother to comment. After I did my install, I found this site looking for answers about the tank gasket. I started wondering if I had made a bad choice and holding my breath waiting for problems to crop up. Anyway I'm 6 months in and so far I have no complaints about my Champion 4. It is infinitely better than the 40 year old fixture that it replaced.

    I have two more old fixtures in the house and am planning to replace them with Champion 4s as finances permit. I will make sure to check the date of manufacture at the store as I didn't realize that their stock could be several years old.

  6. #21
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Default

    I'm personally experience a good percentage of returns on American Standard toilets.

    Some of the product they box up and ship, should have never been installed.
    When you compare their product to other brands, it's down the list quite a ways.
    I don't run into plumbers installing these things, they have to make a profit with their labor.
    It's homeowners.

    I get more complaints with American Standard then with the other brands.
    Last edited by Terry; 02-15-2014 at 02:29 PM.

  7. #22
    DIY Junior Member DIY Duder's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton Noway View Post
    I even read the earlier thread about modifying the gasket with a router. Although I own several routers I figure the seal was designed this way for a reason (although it escapes me) and I was going to use it as designed or bust the toilet trying!
    Well I'm a couple weeks in and still no problems with my Champion 4 either. But for me that's not really the point. It's not weither or not you route the gasket smaller lol, and I'm sure people get the ribs to touch all the time without the bowl/tank cracking. But there have been people who have broke them. Also the popper seal it sounds like will be lasting 1-3 years, and who know's about the flush valve itself. But none of that is the point, why would I buy another Champion KNOWING I can get something for just 30-40 bucks more that has NONE of these problems or risks? And I can't just go to HD and get another seal...? (you can with the drake) Not to mention the time and adjustments it takes to make sure the tank is stright before you start tightining it. I don't hate the toilet. It's a piece of porclin! lol I just don't know why AS would make all there costomers deal with these issues when they don't have to.

    I know some people it sounds like just want to complain, and to me thats what a lot of it sounds like. It's not that loud, in fact its pretty quiet. The clunk? What clunk? The popper falling back in place? Most all toilets I've herd have that clunk. This one's no different. So it's an ok toilet I just don't get why we have to deal with these issues. Like you said "it escapes you". It should. It's stupid. What if your plumer told you about any gasket whatsoever "When it feels tight, JUST CRANK IT DOWN TIGHTER TILL YOUR SCARED IT WILL BREAK! LOL That gasket was my biggest complaint. If you did bust the tank are they going to give you another? Why should you take that risk at all? That's my fealing.

    PS if anything happens to the flush valve you'll have to go through that again.

  8. #23
    DIY Junior Member BonnieC's Avatar
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    Default Strange problem with low tank level

    Can someone help with this problem? I have a Champion 4 toilet with a strange behavior. When flushed, the tank fills properly and then shuts off when full, and the water is at the proper level on the overflow tube. Then, very slowly the water leaks into the bowl but only until the level is about 2 inches below the top of the overflow tube in the tank. Then it stops leaking into the bowl. This leaves enough water to flush the toilet but not enough to get a *good* flush when needed.

    When I began working on fixing this toilet, it was just plain leaking into the bowl continuously. I've changed the tank/bowl gasket, and the whole flapper assembly. This toilet is about 2 years old, and initially worked properly.

  9. #24
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Default waer level

    Now that you have wasted time and money fixing things which were not broken, pull the small refill tube, (from the valve to the overflow pipe), out of the overflow pipe and either secure it above the pipe, or cut it off so it only sticks into the pipe an inch or so, (but then make sure it is secured so it cannot pop out and spray water everywhere).

  10. #25
    DIY Junior Member BonnieC's Avatar
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    Default Can you explain to me why this affects the balance

    of the water levels between the tank and the bowl? I'd like to understand.

  11. #26
    DIY Junior Member dluke@geeklair.net's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaOrange View Post
    I can't buy a Toto without driving an hour or more North or South. I've got both Blows and Home Cheapo within a 5 minute drive from my house.
    I'm in a similar situation. Both of the big box stores are selling the Champion 4 for $188 right now, and I noticed that Korky appears to have a flush valve seal available now (http://korky.com/Flapper450BP.html).

    I want to replace 2 toilets in my house (old ones that flush well, but the glaze has worn off of the bowls and so are hard to keep clean). I don't think I can fit two toilets in my car, though - so that means ~4 hours of driving to pick up two totos (or renting a truck).

    I'm a bit confused that the Champion 4 is on the toilet list (http://www.terrylove.com/crtoilet.htm), I don't see any of the other ones as available from a big box store near me. I'm not a professional, and don't really mind if the install is going to take me extra time, but obviously don't want to be constantly having to replace seals to keep the toilet from running.

  12. #27
    Engineer maddog's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dluke@geeklair.net View Post
    Korky appears to have a flush valve seal available now (http://korky.com/Flapper450BP.html).
    YES!! The blue seals from A.S. seem to blister and leak in about a year. I'm sure the Korky seal will be much better.

  13. #28
    Plumbing Designer FloridaOrange's Avatar
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    Default

    My Champion 4 is too new to make any comments about the longevity of the seal but I do like it so far. Flushes great.










    Last edited by Terry; 02-15-2014 at 05:50 PM.
    Matt
    Semi-professional plumbing designer
    Enjoying life in SW Florida

  14. #29
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
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    Default

    Bonnie,

    I believe what HJ is saying is that if the small overfill tube is down inside the overflow pipe the tank will siphon into the overfill tube until the tank level is close to that of the tube outlet. That's why some toilets have a clip to keep the tube pointed down at/but above the overfill tube opening.

  15. #30
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Default water levels

    The water level in the tank is governed by the adjustment on the fill valve. The water level in the bowl is predetermined by the construction of the toilet. There is very little relationship between them. HOWEVER, if there is something defective with the bowl so it will lose water, AND the tank is also defective so it loses water, that water will keep the defective bowl filled, UNTIL you repair the tank problem, and then the problem with the bowl losing water will "appear", seemingly suddenly.

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