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Thread: Kohler K-11451-0 kit vs Am Std 2586.00ST.020 kit

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member Failure2Comply's Avatar
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    Default Kohler Cimmaron vs Am Std Champion 4 vs Toto

    Hello,
    I am replacing my toilet and would like to know which one is recommended higher. Both of these are the complete kits by each manufacturer.

    Kohler K-11451-0 kit vs Am Std 2586.00ST.020 kit

    http://www.us.kohler.com/us/Cimarron...uestid=1967068

    http://www.americanstandard-us.com/t...ngated-toilet/
    Last edited by Failure2Comply; 01-26-2013 at 01:25 PM. Reason: more information

  2. #2
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Failure2Comply;354904]Hello,
    I am replacing my toilet and would like to know which one is recommended higher. Both of these are the complete kits by each manufacturer.

    Kohler K-11451-0 kit vs Am Std 2586.00ST.020 kit

    http://www.us.kohler.com/us/Cimarron...uestid=1967068

    http://www.americanstandard-us.com/t...ngated-toilet/

    For this kind of money, you can get a Toto Drake, if you shop around. Google CST744E if you are interested, and check the green toilet review box above. Terry's prices there are not current; many are now lower. Check his online store to see what he sells them for, so you have current price comparisons. You will need a seat, closet bolts and a wax ring. The kits are no advantage. Cheap mounting hardware, a single standard wax ring and a standard seat. Better to buy your own of each so you can have quality and customization for your actual needs.
    Last edited by Terry; 09-04-2012 at 06:14 PM.

  3. #3
    DIY Junior Member Failure2Comply's Avatar
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    Thank you for your reply. Is the CST454CEFG worth the difference in price of the CST744E that you listed?

  4. #4
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    In my personal view, it depends upon how you value the looks and features. I like the looks of the regular old Drake (CST744E), and in the applications that we have it in two rooms in our home, I feel like it was a great, reliable, value for us.

    We also have one of the CEFG toilets (meaning, respectively, Double-Cyclone Flush, Eco, Universal Height, Sanagloss) in the master bath.

    In that room, it was worth a little more to have something that matched the pedestal sink we had, so we went with a design more like the Drake II (which was originally called something else when it came out recently-ish and then renamed Drake II, apparently because it was decided that it ultimately would be a worthy successor to the Drake. That's the CST454CEFG).

    As to the features: The Sanagloss finish does help repel stains and resist skid marks, but I can't say I see them often on our non-Sanagloss Drake.

    The Universal Height is a big deal. If you want a Universal Height (or ADA Height), i.e. higher, toilet, the Drake CST744EL is also available for about 20% of the price difference between the Drake and Drake II -- i.e. a little more -- while it is standard on the Drake II. I don't have a clear preference between the two heights, but I know some smaller women who don't like the higher toilet (although many females either don't care or do like it) and some men that really like it because it is easier to stand up, particularly if you are older.

    The Double-Cyclone Flush is very cool. It rinses the bowl by swirling the water around from the top using two horizontal water jets under the rim. It's a more-obvious bowl wash, and that in itself may be a good feature because many people will look at the Drake and say that it doesn't seem to get water all over the bowl. There's a good test where you sprinkle pepper all through the bowl and then flush -- and, in the original Drake, all the pepper disappears. Then people say, "Oh." Both the original Drake (E-Max) flush and the Drake II (Double-Cyclone) flush are superbly-effective in removing waste from the bowl and not clogging in the "trapway" between the bowl and the hole in the floor where it exits the toilet. Indeed, the E-Max is a widely-praised and hard-to-improve-upon design in terms of getting stuff out of the bowl and down the pipe. The Double-Cyclone certainly does just as well, with maybe a little better bowl wash and, like I say, a more-obvious bowl wash. Both have a decent-sized water spot for a low-flow toilet.

    If you like the idea of having a higher toilet and the Sanagloss, then the combo-pack of the Drake II, which incorporates both plus the Double-Cyclone, is a good deal. And of course aesthetics are a reason that a lot of people are willing to pay more for some things. If you don't like a higher toilet, then the Drake II isn't a good one for you.

    So, that's the exhaustive analysis of the differences.

    As you would see from the toilet reviews above (and the user comments), one of the great similarities between these two Drakes is how simple and readily-available their operating parts are. A solid, readily-available, and easy-to-replace valve that fills the toilet, and a flapper on the flush valve that is readily-available at Lowe's and thousands of local hardware stores nationwide. So every five years or so, you aren't faced with having to call a plumber or scour stores for some specially-designed part (as with the Champion flush valve). [There is a readily-available replacement seal for the Champion flush valve, but our experience on here is that people are having to replace them pretty quickly and they're often having trouble doing the the replacement themselves in the overly-complex flush valve. Also, on the Champion 4, it's worth noting that it has the same-size flush hole in the china as the Toto -- 3 inches. It just has a bigger hole (4") in the flush valve over the 3" hole in the china, which is of dubious benefit.]

    Anyway, I hope this helps you to make a decision.
    Last edited by wjcandee; 09-04-2012 at 11:41 PM.

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    DIY Junior Member Failure2Comply's Avatar
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    Thank you sir for such an in depth response. I will stay away from the Champion 4 as it does not seem to offer innovation that matches longevity.

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    DIY Junior Member Failure2Comply's Avatar
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    Well I checked with my local plumbing supply house and my company's discount means I can buy the Toto Drake CST744S (1.6) including the nice self closing seat and tax for a little less than the box store wants for the Kohler Cimmaron (1.28) toilet before tax. Decision made, thanks for all the help guys.
    John
    Last edited by Failure2Comply; 09-08-2012 at 05:22 PM. Reason: Wrong spec letter

  7. #7
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    I have no doubt that you will love it.

    For what it's worth, the CST744S is the one with the 1.6gpf tank guts; the CST744E is the one with the 1.28gpf tank guts. The china of the tank is the same on both, and the bowl is the same on both (usually the C744E) (the tanks are ST743S for the 1.6 and ST743E for the 1.28).

    Most people say that the 1.28 flushes absolutely every bit as well as the 1.6. And here's a secret: if you don't like the 1.28 flush, we can point you to a replacement flapper that will turn it into a 1.6, so if you get the CST744E instead of the CST744S, you can always turn it into an "s" for the price of a $9 flapper at Lowes. Everyone we know who has been given that option has stuck with the E because it worked great.

    I know several posters, including Terry, really like that soft close seat!

    Regardless, we're happy you picked the Toto! Feel free to add your user review after you have it in!
    Last edited by wjcandee; 09-07-2012 at 03:45 PM.

  8. #8
    In the Trades Gary Swart's Avatar
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    I highly recommend either the Universal height or the ADA height. It is so much easier to get up from these than the old standard height. These are approximately the same height as a dining room chair. Anytime your butt is lower than your knees, it requires more effort to rise and as we get older, this becomes a big deal.

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    DIY Junior Member Failure2Comply's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    I have no doubt that you will love it.

    For what it's worth, the CST744S is the one with the 1.6gpf tank guts; the CST744E is the one with the 1.28gpf tank guts. The china of the tank is the same on both, and the bowl is the same on both (usually the C744E) (the tanks are ST743S for the 1.6 and ST743E for the 1.28).

    Most people say that the 1.28 flushes absolutely every bit as well as the 1.6. And here's a secret: if you don't like the 1.28 flush, we can point you to a replacement flapper that will turn it into a 1.6, so if you get the CST744E instead of the CST744S, you can always turn it into an "s" for the price of a $9 flapper at Lowes. Everyone we know who has been given that option has stuck with the E because it worked great.

    I know several posters, including Terry, really like that soft close seat!

    Regardless, we're happy you picked the Toto! Feel free to add your user review after you have it in!
    It must be the "S" model as I confirmed it was 1.6gpf.

  10. #10
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Great! Glad you got a good price with the soft close seat, and I am sure you will be impressed with the quality.

  11. #11
    DIY Junior Member Failure2Comply's Avatar
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    Update:

    Well I took everyone's advice and I installed today with the help of my son-in-law a Toto M#C744EL-01 Bowl, a #ST743S-01 Tank, a #SS114-01 Soft Close Seat. This is the nicest toilet I have ever seen, quality all the way. Thanks again guys for putting me on the right track. Oh, and Jamie, thanks for a great "How To" sticky, I used your instructions and it saved me lots of time.

    John

  12. #12
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Absolutely delighted to see your comments! Congratulations, and thanks for sharing the great outcome with us!

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