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Thread: New Whole House Carbon Filter & Water Softener

  1. #16
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    And you sound like someone who is trolling.

    What is wrong with saying Fleck and Clack are the best valves manfactured in the world, and that they are better than Canature valves? Canature valves have come a long way in the past 5 years. They would now qualify as decent, the same way the low end stuff from the big box stores would be considered decent. Some control valve manufacturers make absolute junk, trust me, I get samples from all over the world on a regular basis for our evaluation.
    Last edited by ditttohead; 08-31-2012 at 09:19 PM.

  2. #17
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    What is wrong with saying Fleck and Clack are the best valves manfactured in the world, and that they are better than Canature valves?

    Canature valves have come a long way in the past 5 years. They would now qualify as decent, the same way the low end stuff from the big box stores would be considered decent.

    Some control valve manufacturers make absolute junk, trust me, I get samples from all over the world on a regular basis for our evaluation.
    There's nothing wrong with it as long as it is true, except it is very subjective and based on only your opinion.

    I happen to believe they make the best valves too, and I believe Clack to be better than Fleck, but I've never seen the Canatrue valves we are supposed to be discussing.

    So I have no opinion of Canature valves as yet. I have asked you about your opinion that they are low quality and then why you say they are "decent" and now again, you have another opinion with no explanation of what it is based on, saying "Canature valves have come a long way in the past 5 years".... without any explanation of what your constantly changing opinions are based on, it sounds like you aren't very sure, or you're trying to be Californian PC... or, it's just pure gossip.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #18
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    There's nothing wrong with it as long as it is true, except it is very subjective and based on only your opinion.

    I happen to believe they make the best valves too, and I believe Clack to be better than Fleck, but I've never seen the Canatrue valves we are supposed to be discussing.

    So I have no opinion of Canature valves as yet. I have asked you about your opinion that they are low quality and then why you say they are "decent" and now again, you have another opinion with no explanation of what it is based on, saying "Canature valves have come a long way in the past 5 years".... without any explanation of what your constantly changing opinions are based on, it sounds like you aren't very sure, or you're trying to be Californian PC... or, it's just pure gossip.
    Think what you want, or buy some yourseld and run them through a proper series of testing protocols. I am not at liberty to divulge every test result that we complete. Nor do I want to, especially to you. There is a major Canture dealer in Florida, they would be glad to sell you one. Why not install it at your house (lol) and tell us your thoughts? I know they can make a 1/4 Cu. Ft. unit that will fit next to the propane tank in the side compartment of your house, just above the left rear wheel.

    Your continued attempts at trolling are actually entertaining. Your strange desire to simply disagree with everybody, on every post is nothing new, just what we expect.

  4. #19
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    I spent a few hours last night looking into Canature and I see that they are creating quite a presence here in the US.

    Funny thing, the OP here has a valve that is regenerating his softener and backwashing his carbon filter; one valve two different minerals/operations. And here you are not wanting to divulge every test result you've done on Canature valves.

    Then I recalled that a few months ago when you started posting here you went on'n on about developing a valve that could be used for two tanks containing two different medias. You made it sound as if it was a new thing you invented, but failed to mention Canature had already done it and you were copying their idea.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #20
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I spent a few hours last night looking into Canature and I see that they are creating quite a presence here in the US.

    Funny thing, the OP here has a valve that is regenerating his softener and backwashing his carbon filter; one valve two different minerals/operations. And here you are not wanting to divulge every test result you've done on Canature valves.

    Then I recalled that a few months ago when you started posting here you went on'n on about developing a valve that could be used for two tanks containing two different medias. You made it sound as if it was a new thing you invented, but failed to mention Canature had already done it and you were copying their idea.
    hahaha, the more you talk the more foolish you sound. If you look back, I have been doing the two tank, 1 valve design for nearly 20+ years (one of the earliest high quality designs was done by Mattson Witt, the stacked tank adaper I still have in use at my neices house is over 15 years old), and I use Canature adapters on my 1 valve quad tank design. Please, if you have no clue as to what you are saying, then it might be wise to not say anything at all. I have been selling Canature components in the US market for a very long time, I will repost the picture of my latest test subject later when I return from my hockey games. You have this weird idea that I am just some guy that sells a few units every week. I might suggest you attend some WQA trade shows, or AMTA, or Aquatech Amsterdam, Aquatech China, Aquatech India, PWQA, TWQA, EWQA CAR Care Expo, Groundwater show, or even some of the local training seminars put on by the large distributors. You are welcome to go to Nebraska in a couple of weeks, i will be doing a training seminar for one of the OEM's then. You may learn something about the industry. Or maybe, try to show some small amount of respect to the guys on this website that help the DIY's with a nice attitude, good advice, and professionalism. Your need to troll or to belittle every single post that the licenesed, qualified, insured, and legitimite pros on this site is quite strange. Your megalomania is showing.

  6. #21
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    After reviewing the picture you sent, the design has a common flaw we see with this system.

    1. The Valve is a canature, it can easily be replaced with a Clack WS1 or any Fleck other than the 7000 (due to the 32mm-1.05 adapter clearance issues).

    2. The tanks appear to be the same size. I will post pictures of our version of this design that we distribute. The GAC tanks diameter is always smaller. This is needed to ensure adequate backwashing of both medias. it should be calculated to within 20% of manufacturers recommendations. On you design, the GAC will be under backwashed, or the resin will be over backwashed. We have discussed this at length with many companies, but the concept seems to difficult to grasp, or they do not like the look of the tanks being different sizes.

    I will add more to this later, but I am late for Hockey, back to back games tonight, and 1 of my teams only has 5 players showing up, time for some iron man!

  7. #22
    DIY Junior Member Zzyzx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    After reviewing the picture you sent, the design has a common flaw we see with this system.
    A flaw? Does that mean the system will not soften or filter the water correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    1. The Valve is a canature, it can easily be replaced with a Clack WS1 or any Fleck other than the 7000 (due to the 32mm-1.05 adapter clearance issues).
    After speaking with the dealer, said he would have no problem replacing the Canature valve with the Clack valve. Will the Clack WS1 have the same ability that the Canuture valve has at back flushing both tanks? The dealer/installer told me he used the Canature valve specifically because the a dual backwashing capabilities, not because he was trying to put on a cheaper valve to make more profit, but to provide me with the features that my system requires without the expense of 2 Clack valves.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    2. The tanks appear to be the same size. I will post pictures of our version of this design that we distribute. The GAC tanks diameter is always smaller. This is needed to ensure adequate backwashing of both medias. it should be calculated to within 20% of manufacturers recommendations. On you design, the GAC will be under backwashed, or the resin will be over backwashed. We have discussed this at length with many companies, but the concept seems to difficult to grasp, or they do not like the look of the tanks being different sizes.
    So the Canature valve programmed correctly, does not have the ability to preform a proper backwash?

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    I will add more to this later, but I am late for Hockey, back to back games tonight, and 1 of my teams only has 5 players showing up, time for some iron man!
    Thank you for any more insight.

  8. #23
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    hahaha, the more you talk the more foolish you sound. If you look back, I have been doing the two tank, 1 valve design for nearly 20+ years (one of the earliest high quality designs was done by Mattson Witt, the stacked tank adaper I still have in use at my neices house is over 15 years old), and I use Canature adapters on my 1 valve quad tank design. Please, if you have no clue as to what you are saying, then it might be wise to not say anything at all. I have been selling Canature components in the US market for a very long time, I will repost the picture of my latest test subject later when I return from my hockey games. You have this weird idea that I am just some guy that sells a few units every week. I might suggest you attend some WQA trade shows, or AMTA, or Aquatech Amsterdam, Aquatech China, Aquatech India, PWQA, TWQA, EWQA CAR Care Expo, Groundwater show, or even some of the local training seminars put on by the large distributors. You are welcome to go to Nebraska in a couple of weeks, i will be doing a training seminar for one of the OEM's then. You may learn something about the industry. Or maybe, try to show some small amount of respect to the guys on this website that help the DIY's with a nice attitude, good advice, and professionalism. Your need to troll or to belittle every single post that the licenesed, qualified, insured, and legitimite pros on this site is quite strange. Your megalomania is showing.
    Yep, it's posts like that that give me my clues about you. Ya sure like to brag, the consummate salesman. But you don't sell to the residential end user that posts here.

    Frankly I think you are all about the money.

    The question was, and reading later posts is still about the quality of the Canature control valve and the OP's system. In the time it took you to brag about yourself and run me down, you could have answered the question but no, you've put it off again but tell me, why are you so famous and yet anonymous here? You've given me enough clues but tell others why you aren't proud enough of your posts here to use your real name.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #24
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    But Gary, you don't sell to the consumer either. Me and a couple others are the only ones on here that actually sell, service and install.

    What is your hang up on the real name thing? I note that HJ, Valveman, Jadnashua, jimbo and most of the other mods here don't use their names either. Terry is the only one that does, well him and you and even you have no permanent address so it ain't like anyone can come knocking at your door is it? Most that don't use their real names either do it because they don't want to field phone calls and spam emails or more likely because way way back everyone used some kind of screen name. Why can't you respect anothers right to privacy? and moreover, what difference would it make to the discussion if we all used our real names? You have been slinging this same tired old crap for years now.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  10. #25
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    That is all he has. Tired old retreaded trolling comments that are of no use to the OP or anyone else. He says I am all about the money. How much do I make from this board? How many people do I beg to go to my website? "Click here pleeeeeeease..." Even the training seminar I am doing next week is free. I am paying for the airfare, the hotel, the rental car... Big money maker there for me. Not only that, this training seminar is for a competitor.

    He is so worried about my real name, considering he gives out other executives personal office phone numbers when he gets mad at them, I am sure many people would understand why I dont advertise my name. And like you said, I actually have a permanent address and a job.

    Now to the OP's questions, if you beleive he uses a Canature valve in order to give you a better product, not to save money... I have a bridge for sale. Have him put on the Clack valve, and request an extra free injector, 1 size larger than the one that is designed for a 10" tank. I beleive the 10" tank is an E, ask him to give you a G injector so if there is any problem, it can be fixed easily by you, it will not require him to come out and adjust anything, you simply replace the injector with the next size up. Also, feel free to have this guy call me if needs any assitance in the future.

    Water softening resin and GAC require significantly different backwash rates.

    Water softener: 5 GPM per sq. ft, 10" tank 5x5x3.14/144x5 = approximately 2.5 GPM
    GAC: 10 GPM per sq. ft., 10" tank 5x5x3.14/144x10 = approximately 5+ gpm. Sorry, to lazy to get a calculator to give you exact numbers, but the GAC requires twice the backwash rate of resin. They either can slit the difference making both medias improperly backwashed, or one will be way under, oir way over.

    Notice my system below, 4 different diameter tanks, 4 different medias, all balanced. The softening resin is slightly over bacwashed, but I have adjusted the freeboard to accomodate this.

    Name:  prototype2.jpg
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  11. #26
    DIY Junior Member Zzyzx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post

    Now to the OP's questions, if you beleive he uses a Canature valve in order to give you a better product, not to save money... I have a bridge for sale.
    He didn't say he installed the Canature valve because it was better then the Clack, he said he installed it because it preforms a function (backflush 2 tanks) that the Clack can't. I have asked several times if the Clack can preform that function, but still have not received an answer

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Have him put on the Clack valve, and request an extra free injector, 1 size larger than the one that is designed for a 10" tank. I beleive the 10" tank is an E, ask him to give you a G injector so if there is any problem, it can be fixed easily by you, it will not require him to come out and adjust anything, you simply replace the injector with the next size up. Also, feel free to have this guy call me if needs any assitance in the future.
    I will run this information by him to see what he says.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Water softening resin and GAC require significantly different backwash rates.

    Water softener: 5 GPM per sq. ft, 10" tank 5x5x3.14/144x5 = approximately 2.5 GPM
    GAC: 10 GPM per sq. ft., 10" tank 5x5x3.14/144x10 = approximately 5+ gpm. Sorry, to lazy to get a calculator to give you exact numbers, but the GAC requires twice the backwash rate of resin. They either can slit the difference making both medias improperly backwashed, or one will be way under, oir way over.
    I will run these statistics by him was well. Thanks for the information!

  12. #27
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Maybe I didnt define it clearly enough. The Clack valve has 1 minor disadvantage that other valves dont have. Fully adjustable cycle times. For 95% of applications, this is not an issue. For a twin tank system, the brine draw time will typically be extended slightly to allow for a little extra slow rinsing to occur ensuring the salt brine is completely gone when the system completes the regeneration. A Fleck SXT and Canature valves have adjustable cycle times. For the most part, the Clack will do just fine, but if there is ever a problem, we simply put in the next larger injector to overcome this.

    The Clack is absolutely a better valve. As is the Fleck. The Canature valves have started to pass some of the more difficult testing protocols that they have failed in the past. They are NSF, but this in itself does not indicate the valve is good, only that it does not impart dangerous impurities into the water.

    Sorry if I was not clear on that, hopefully this is more clear.

    The real test wouldbe to ask the question on this or any other board. "I have a ten year old Canature valve that is not working, should I repair it?" The answer will be a resounding "no", and to replace it with a high quality valve. The Canature valves are not junk like many valves are, but they certainly are not the same quality as Pentair or Clack Corp valves.

    If you notice on my system, it is similar to your design, just take to a more difficult level. Also, a 7000XTR was used for this prototype, I adjusted the brine draw to 120 minutes and I use a slightly smaller injector to maximize efficiencies during this weeks tests. All low TDS waste is diverted to irrigation, high TDS is diverted to sewer. The Grey box to the right of the softener uses an HM digital commercial TDS monitor controlling an Apollo motorized 3 way ball valve on the drain line.

    Turbidex in a 10" diameter tank 7-9 gpm backwash rate
    Softening resin in a 14" tank 5-6 GPM< more freeboard due to backwash rate
    KDf 55 in a 7" tank 7-8 GPM backwash rate
    GAC in a 12" tank 7-8 GPM

    As you can see, the tanks backwash rates are all within specifications, except for the softener, it is slightly high on the backwash, but an extended freeboard was calculated to correct for this.
    Last edited by ditttohead; 09-03-2012 at 07:38 PM.

  13. #28
    DIY Junior Member Zzyzx's Avatar
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    Yes, this is very clear to me now, thank you!

    The installer gave me 30 days to test the system. In a couple of weeks he will be coming out to test the water hardness among others. I'll run by the information that has been provided.

    Again, thanks for the insight.

  14. #29
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    The system will work the same, Canature or Clack, it ismore of a longevity issue. Even the worst quality control valves we test will make through our 1 year simulator. The real question comes into the 10 year simulator, and our cycle testing.

    Ask him what DLFC he used and how he accomodated the variances in the tank diameters for the different medias. I will be honest, he wont be able to answer that since he bought the unit from a distributor as is, and most people dont understand this concept. Even the distributors of this unit dont understand it. It is good marketing, (1 Valve to control 2 tanks, saves water!) in reality, it is really just done to save some money on the expensive control valves. It does legitimately save some water, but that is the marketing apsect.

    Now, in all reality, the unit should be fine, even though the medias are not being properly backwashed. When we test medias, we have formulas, equations, rules, etc, that we follow to ensure the medias and the systems function in a very specific and repeateable way even when they are installed in warm or cold water, high DSI or low, municipal, or well. When a system is installed, there is so much safety factor built into the design that even if it installed completely impropoerly, it will suually still work for many years. Your unit is a good example. even though the backwash rates will be wrong, the resin and GAC will still probably last for many years without fail. When they are done right, the medias can last much longer, function better, and be more efficient.

    Hope this helps.

  15. #30
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    That is all he has. Tired old retreaded trolling comments that are of no use to the OP or anyone else. He says I am all about the money. How much do I make from this board? How many people do I beg to go to my website? "Click here pleeeeeeease..." Even the training seminar I am doing next week is free. I am paying for the airfare, the hotel, the rental car... Big money maker there for me. Not only that, this training seminar is for a competitor.
    Yes lead generation/prospecting costs money.

    Unless you own the wholesale only company you work for you don't have a web site and especially a web site for DIYer residential customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    He is so worried about my real name, considering he gives out other executives personal office phone numbers when he gets mad at them, I am sure many people would understand why I dont advertise my name. And like you said, I actually have a permanent address and a job.
    Recall you told us all about an article you wrote awhile back (I read it) and it has a short bio on you? You said you weren't hiding who you are and didn't care if people knew who you are, so now you've changed your mind?

    About that "executive" and his name and phone number..., if you were honest you'd mention that he told all online dealers in a group email that for whatever reason if they could not service their online customers to give them his name, number and extension and he personally would get them parts etc.. He as done it in the past and again just last week for a customer of mine.

    And that you got that info from my forum where a copy of his email was posted and I posted it for my customers benefit since I was not going to be in business.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Now to the OP's questions,
    It's about time.

    BTW, the article you mentioned in Jan. that you were writing for publication this Sept., did you get it done? Can we read it?

    BTW, what version of the Clack WS-1 are you referring to when you say the cycle times aren't adjustable on a Clack? IIRC there is none of its 4 versions that you can't adjust the length of time on.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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