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Thread: Delay from when pressure switch clicks and pump turns on

  1. #31
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Doesn't water evaporate in perfect vacuum?
    Correct. There cannot be a perfect vacuum because of that. Still, it is like the expansion and contraction of steam. The evaporated water in the near vacuum occupies the space.

    Do you know for sure where and how many checkvalves there are? The reason I ask is that if there is only one topside that you can remove without having to pull the pump, there is a distinct possibility of resurrecting the failing one in the pump. The checkvalve holds better if it has pressure against it so it might seal if it is the only one.

    Also, if the pressure then won't hold it may suggest that there is a hole in the pipe.

  2. #32
    DIY Junior Member Bobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porky View Post
    Since it looks like you may be updating everything you may want to consider adding a Cycle Stop Valve http://www.cyclestopvalves.com. It will stop the cycling and extend the life of everythinng plus give you constant pressure!
    Absolutely. I was checking out the website. Makes sense to me. I too would have guessed that the pump would be using more power when choked. I tested a Physicist here at work with that question but he got it right.

  3. #33
    DIY Junior Member Bobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Correct. There cannot be a perfect vacuum because of that. Still, it is like the expansion and contraction of steam. The evaporated water in the near vacuum occupies the space.

    Do you know for sure where and how many checkvalves there are? The reason I ask is that if there is only one topside that you can remove without having to pull the pump, there is a distinct possibility of resurrecting the failing one in the pump. The checkvalve holds better if it has pressure against it so it might seal if it is the only one.

    Also, if the pressure then won't hold it may suggest that there is a hole in the pipe.
    I'm not sure of the number of checkvalves. As you may have guessed I'm not super familiar with these systems. On the very top of the well is a big brass elbow with a pressure relief on the top. Is that possibly a checkvalve? Only other big brass fitting is where the pressure switch and gauge thread into.

  4. #34
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    There could be a checkvalve somewhere on the drop pipe or even buried between the well and the house. Tee in a pressure gauge where the PRV is and see what it has to say.

    Also, watch/listen for any sign of waterhammer and/or any other noise at the wellhead. Unless valveman is spot on and there is a small hole letting in air and slowly letting it back out, you should see some evidence of waterhammer if the issue is checkvalve failure.

    You might want to get a pumpman or wellman on-site to render an opinion and then plan accordingly.

  5. #35
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    I'm surprised that you professional pump men somehow think the laws of physics don't apply here. It is the very same law of physics that limit the lift of a shallow well pump.

    The example I provided of the mercury barometer applies as well to water. The only difference is the weight. Whereas with mercury you only need a 30 inch tall column because it's so heavy, a column of water needs to be around 30 feet.
    I am not arguing with the laws of physics. I know the vacuum will produce a void. I just don’t think it is very big. The size of the vacuum void would determine how much water drops out the pump at the bottom. This would also determine how much water the pump has to produce to refill the void.

    The fact that the pipe is under a vacuum means the pump will fill this void faster than if there is no vacuum. So if the pipe is under a vacuum, the pump should not have to run 10 or 30 seconds to refill the pipe. But if the check valve at the bottom is bad and there is a hole in the upper section of the pipe, it would take a while to refill the pipe, the same as it does the first time the pump is started when the pipe is empty.

    The “big brass fitting” where the pressure switch and gauge are connected is a check valve. You can pull the guts out of this check valve and still use it as a place to screw in the pressure switch and gauge.

  6. #36
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valveman View Post
    The “big brass fitting” where the pressure switch and gauge are connected is a check valve.
    If it looks like this and not a conventional tank Tee, I concur.


    The following is a tank Tee.

  7. #37
    DIY Junior Member Bobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    If it looks like this and not a conventional tank Tee, I concur.


    The following is a tank Tee.
    It looks like the first one except the threads for the switch and gauge are 90 degrees apart.

    If I remove the checkvalve on top and bottom checkvalves fails, won't that suck the bladder in the tank for another 14.7 psia in the opposite direction?

  8. #38
    DIY Junior Member Bobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    There could be a checkvalve somewhere on the drop pipe or even buried between the well and the house. Tee in a pressure gauge where the PRV is and see what it has to say.

    Also, watch/listen for any sign of waterhammer and/or any other noise at the wellhead. Unless valveman is spot on and there is a small hole letting in air and slowly letting it back out, you should see some evidence of waterhammer if the issue is checkvalve failure.

    You might want to get a pumpman or wellman on-site to render an opinion and then plan accordingly.
    I have spent a lot of time sitting and watching the cycle. Everything is quite until the 30 sec mark when I hear the inrush of water but no visible shock or release of air can be heard. Sometimes I hear a bloup in the tank when near full but I have never noticed any air from the faucets.

    I'm calling around to see if any of the wellman have a portable puller since I have made it difficult to get a truck to the pump house.
    Last edited by Bobo; 08-27-2012 at 11:30 AM.

  9. #39
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Have you put an ammeter on the circuit to see what the pump is drawing during that first 30 seconds?

  10. #40
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    The sound at the tank when it is nearly full is likely the bladder sticking and then slipping on the inside of the tank. As for air if there is any, if you have a softener and/or iron filter, it could act as an air accumulator that then purges when backwashed.

  11. #41
    DIY Junior Member Bobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Have you put an ammeter on the circuit to see what the pump is drawing during that first 30 seconds?
    Got a hold of a meter Today. Cut in amperage was 11.7. It seemed to slowly climb to about 12.3 for the 30 seconds and then stayed around 12.0 till cut out.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Got a hold of a meter Today. Cut in amperage was 11.7. It seemed to slowly climb to about 12.3 for the 30 seconds and then stayed around 12.0 till cut out.
    Then it is pumping max flow from the very start. How many GPM is the pump?

  13. #43
    DIY Member bcpumpguy's Avatar
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    http://www.sciencemadesimple.co.uk/page72g.html

    this would agree with us simple pump guys.....

    btw the vacuum in a barometer is made by outside air pressure, there always is a dead airspace at the top of a mercury barometer.
    Last edited by bcpumpguy; 08-27-2012 at 07:30 PM.

  14. #44
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcpumpguy View Post
    http://www.sciencemadesimple.co.uk/page72g.html

    this would agree with us simple pump guys.....
    You pump guys simply need to stop sucking on straws and scale it up.
    http://www.juliantrubin.com/bigten/t...barometer.html

    Quote Originally Posted by bcpumpguy View Post
    btw the vacuum in a barometer is made by outside air pressure, there always is a dead airspace at the top of a mercury barometer.
    There is no air at the top of a mercury barometer. It is a vacuum. Air pressure does act upon the mercury by causing it to be higher than it otherwise would be.

  15. #45
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    If I remove the checkvalve on top and bottom checkvalves fails, won't that suck the bladder in the tank for another 14.7 psia in the opposite direction?
    Sorry, I missed that question. In that case only if the pump didn't start, the pressure would continue to fall as water runs back to the well until the vacuum pulled the bladder down over the opening. That would be like having an extra 15 PSI of precharge on the bladder and I don't think that would be enough to damage it unless it's already on its last leg.

    That said however, any vessel designed only for pressure, should not be subjected to a vacuum as it could collapse. It's been known to happen to composite hydro-pneumatic tanks and to water softeners, etc.

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