New Well Questions

[rgabriel]

I have a few questions, I'm having issues with water quality and lack of gpm on my old shallow jet pump well. I spoke with others in my area and almost everyone has ditched there jet pumps because the table has dropped. Out of all the drillers I spoke to they all state the water quality was horrible in the shallow water table due to large scale farming and heavy use of fertilizers over the years, hence high nitrates now a days.

My state tracks well parameters very well and has a huge database. I spoke with the Department of the Environment and they told me that of all the wells drilled in my neighborhood in the last few years everything that went to the 150-210' range had no nitrates and the quality was great. They also said there's a clay table that starts at 110' and ends at 135' roughly, and that should prevent a large majority of the nitrates from leaching in. They said the aquafier below is large and the water quality has decent ph, it's a little on the low side and to expect a bit of iron (most of the wells were at .3ppm). Considering I'm currently pushing nitrates on the high level, I've decided to ditch the shallow well.(Home test was 10ppm, local lab was 40ppm, and Department of the Environment 35ppm).

I contacted a few drillers, and most of them had the attitude like they were doing me a favor drilling me a well, a lot knew nothing about my area and told me it was my responsibility to contact the department of the environment and see how far I would have to drill. Only two knew everything about my area the moment they picked up the phone, and started naming customers in my area, along with statistics on the other wells they had drilled, and that they felt I could escape the nitrates like others had.

I asked for a well sized for irrigation of my yard and household use. Both quoted 25GPM wells.

#1 Pushed a Grundfos SQE 1 1/2HP Variable Speed Pump, 4 Gallon Tank, and 210' 4" Well.

#2 Pushed a Goulds 1HP, 122G Tank, 220' 4" Well

I googled constant pressure pumps, specifically the one listed below and saw installers / owners complaing nonstop. I asked #1 about CSV and he said he refused to use one, and he would only install a SQE variable speed unit. After my research I decided not to use him. I asked number two about installing a CSV he said he had never heard of it, and changed the topic to something else. He's coming on Monday for a formal quote and to look at the property.

Should I push the issue again, and ask him to install one? Or should I just install it after the fact? Are there any other questions I need to ask in general about this?

Thanks

[valveman]

I would love for you to push the CSV issue again. This is sometimes how pump installers find out about new technology. Otherwise all the info they get is from their pump supply house. Of course the pump supply house is going to push what they make the most profit with. A big pressure tank or a variable speed system like the SQE cost the most and shortens the life of your pump system. This way they make as much money from you for first install as they would normally get from a good pump system in thirty years. What makes the most profit for the pump company is also the worst thing for the end user.

If they refuse to come to the 21st century, you can easily install the CSV yourself. The Pside-Kick kit comes with a CSV1A Cycle Stop Valve, a 4.5 gallon pressure tank, pressure switch and gauge, pressure relief valve, and wall mount brackets. It has everything you need except the pump, and sells several places on the Internet for $399.00. Not only is this the least expensive way to control your pump, but will actually make your pump last longer while delivering constant pressure to the house.

See this link;

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_psidekick.html

[rgabriel]

I would love for you to push the CSV issue again. This is sometimes how pump installers find out about new technology. Otherwise all the info they get is from their pump supply house. Of course the pump supply house is going to push what they make the most profit with. A big pressure tank or a variable speed system like the SQE cost the most and shortens the life of your pump system. This way they make as much money from you for first install as they would normally get from a good pump system in thirty years. What makes the most profit for the pump company is also the worst thing for the end user.

If they refuse to come to the 21st century, you can easily install the CSV yourself. The Pside-Kick kit comes with a CSV1A Cycle Stop Valve, a 4.5 gallon pressure tank, pressure switch and gauge, pressure relief valve, and wall mount brackets. It has everything you need except the pump, and sells several places on the Internet for $399.00. Not only is this the least expensive way to control your pump, but will actually make your pump last longer while delivering constant pressure to the house.

See this link;

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_psidekick.html

Valvem.an,

He said if I provide it he will install it and will only warranty the pump and well itself.

I had a question for you on small water usage, doesnt this short cycle the pump still?

Example: I turn on the kitchen faucet until drawdown immediatley turns the pump on, then I turn it off. The pump would fill the small tank back up extremely quick. At that point the pump would have been on for only lets say 20 seconds. Shouldnt the tank still be sized properly for the drawdown of the pump? The driller brought this up.

Thanks

[valveman]

NO. The pump run time and tank draw down is completely different when using a CSV. Yes the pump will come on after using only 1 gallon of water. Then if you stop using water, it will take about 30 seconds to refill the tank. But if water is used anywhere else in the house within that 30 seconds, the pump continues to run. So usually a toilet is flushed, then the shower is on for ten minutes, and someone rinses a toothbrush before the pump ever shuts off. Without a CSV, the pump may have cycled on and off 5 times while all this is happening. So the CSV eliminates so many cycles for longer periods of water use, that a cycle for an occasional flush of the toilet by itself is a moot point.

The CSV also de-rates the motor, which makes it pull lower amps and produces less heat. So the minimum run time and off times for a submersible motor using a regular pressure tank doesn’t come into play when using a CSV.

Real cycling problems happen when using water for long period of time. Long showers, heat pumps, or sprinklers on for hours can cause dozens or hundreds of cycles per day with the old pressure tank systems. The CSV cuts this from hundreds of cycles to one cycle per day. So there are plenty of cycles left if you did flush a toilet 30 times per day by itself, even though that is a rare scenario.

The Cycle Stop Valve is by far better at supplying water for intermittent uses than a VFD like the SQE. With the CSV set at 50 PSI, we use a 40/60 pressure switch. The 40/60 switch allows you to use all the water in the tank, no matter the tank size, before the pump is started.

With a VFD like the SQE, there is no 40/60 bandwidth. Set an SQE at 50 PSI, and it is always at 50 PSI. Which means that no water ever enters the tank and no water ever leaves the tank, no matter the size of the tank. So the pump has to come on for you to be able to use even a thimble full of water. As a matter of fact you need to use a special “flow through” type tank, to keep what water is in the tank from turning green and smelly from lack of use. The only time water from the pressure tank ever comes out is during a power outage. Then it usually shoots a shot of green, smelly water in the house. My guess is the pump man knows so little about VFD’s like the SQE, that he doesn’t even know this is how it works.

The best of both worlds is to use a CSV with a larger tank. This would supply several gallons of water (depending on the tank size) before the pump is started. Then the CSV would still eliminate cycling during periods of long term water use. However, you will quickly see that the larger tank is just a waste of money and space. There are so few single intermittent uses of water for a house that the big tank just means you have to wait longer before you see the strong constant pressure from the CSV.

[rgabriel]

NO. The pump run time and tank draw down is completely different when using a CSV. Yes the pump will come on after using only 1 gallon of water. Then if you stop using water, it will take about 30 seconds to refill the tank. But if water is used anywhere else in the house within that 30 seconds, the pump continues to run. So usually a toilet is flushed, then the shower is on for ten minutes, and someone rinses a toothbrush before the pump ever shuts off. Without a CSV, the pump may have cycled on and off 5 times while all this is happening. So the CSV eliminates so many cycles for longer periods of water use, that a cycle for an occasional flush of the toilet by itself is a moot point.

Valveman,

Thanks for all the information! As far as pump sizing for the well, is there anything special they need to do when using a CSV? I just want to make sure I also end up with the proper pump for this style application. Or do they just do it the normal way they do? The driller uses Goulds GS 4" Submersibles, I'm unsure of the exact model he wanted to use right now. The well is supposed to be 220' with a 25GPM replenishment rate, its also being used to irrigation the yard and domestic in house use.

Thanks,

[rgabriel]

Was doing some reading this evening on the stop cycle site, looking at how to use my current Flotec 50G pressure tank. It's only a month old and from my current jet pump setup that is about to go away. I'd rather reuse it than have to attempt to find a home for it.

The page I'm reading is http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_...install_2.html

I understand most of it, and was going to set the pressure switch at 50/61(1 above the CSV from what I read it has to be 1 above?) and the CSV at 60. Now this is the quote I get confused on.

6) Close off downstream water usage. The pressure tank will fill at approximately 1 GPM from the valve set pressure to the pressure switch cut off pressure. Pressure tank drawdown determines how much higher the pressure switch shut off point must be than the pressure regulated by the CSV1W.

So the CSV only allows a pressure tank to fill at 1GPM when all fixtures are closed? By my math of a roughly 6.6G drawndown on 50G's at 50/60 settings, it'll then take the tank like 7 mins to fill? So now my pump will be throttled to 1GPM for 7 mins, at that point isn't overheating a concern?(From what I read most pumps like a 2GPM rate through them to keep them cool).

[valveman]

At 200’ and 50 PSI a 1.5 HP pump will only produce about 11 GPM. If the water level stays around 150’, you will get about 15 GPM. (looking at a 13GS15)

If you want 25 GPM you will need a 3 HP, model 25GS30.

A 50 gallon pressure tank holds about 12 gallons of water between 40 and 60 PSI. So if you set the CSV at 55 PSI, it will fill the first ¾ of the tank very quickly (at full flow), then it will put the last 3 gallons in at 1 GPM, or 3 minutes of run time. This can be adjusted anyway you want, but need at least 1 minute and no more than 3 minutes.

2 HP and smaller motors only need about 2/10ths of a GPM to stay cool. So they can be run at 1 GPM for as long as you want without hurting anything. Just don’t want more than 3 minutes of run time to fill the tank to decrease energy consumption.

The main consideration with a CSV is to make sure your pipe can handle the back pressure. With the 13GS15 and a static water level of 100’, the pipe needs to be able to stand a maximum of 121 PSI. With the 25GS30 it would be 155 PSI backpressure. Any 160# rated pipe will work fine.

[rgabriel]

At 200’ and 50 PSI a 1.5 HP pump will only produce about 11 GPM. If the water level stays around 150’, you will get about 15 GPM. (looking at a 13GS15)

If you want 25 GPM you will need a 3 HP, model 25GS30.

A 50 gallon pressure tank holds about 12 gallons of water between 40 and 60 PSI. So if you set the CSV at 55 PSI, it will fill the first ¾ of the tank very quickly (at full flow), then it will put the last 3 gallons in at 1 GPM, or 3 minutes of run time. This can be adjusted anyway you want, but need at least 1 minute and no more than 3 minutes.

2 HP and smaller motors only need about 2/10ths of a GPM to stay cool. So they can be run at 1 GPM for as long as you want without hurting anything. Just don’t want more than 3 minutes of run time to fill the tank to decrease energy consumption.

The main consideration with a CSV is to make sure your pipe can handle the back pressure. With the 13GS15 and a static water level of 100’, the pipe needs to be able to stand a maximum of 121 PSI. With the 25GS30 it would be 155 PSI backpressure. Any 160# rated pipe will work fine.

Well I met with the driller this morning, he said he was fine with everything I wanted. He's a SQE dealer for constant pressure, but was willing to allow a CSV, and wanted to see how it did with my house.

Here's what I've been quoted and the stats of the well after speaking with him. He said the replenishment rates of 4" wells around here are so high it will be way beyond 25GPM, and not to be concerned about draw down because its non existent here (I'm in a costal area).

200' Total Depth
100' Pump Will Be Set
35' Static Water Level
80' to the house with a 3' vertical rise over 80'
1 1/4" #160 Poly, He wanted to use #120 but I asked for #160.

He said with a Goulds GS25 1HP I should have between 18-20GPM at 60PSI...I'm looking at the charts and I don't see that. I'll assume that I'm just reading them wrong.



Thanks for all the help with so far.

[valveman]

As long as the water level doesn’t pull down much deeper than 35’, that pump will work. And that pump can only build about 90 PSI , so 120# pipe would have been fine, but 160# won’t hurt.

I am sure the pump man is not happy that the Pside-Kick with the CSV will be 800 to 1000 bucks less than the SQE. Maybe after he sees that it works better than the SQE, he will realize the lower cost of the CSV system can help him beat out the other pump guys and get more jobs.

[ballvalve]

why drill a 200' hole for a 100' pump set? and 1" poly is sufficient.

[valveman]

Some areas you have to drill deep to hit the water table. But then the aquifer has enough pressure to come up to 35', so you don't need to set the pump much deeper than that.

[Porky]

Drillers that don't know about CSV's aren't up to date with technology. If they will only install a SQE variable speed pump tells me that they only want to spend your dollars and not do you a service. It would be interesting if you would ask them if they know "PORKY"! If they don't know "Porky", you don't want them. Not bragging, it's just a fact.

[ballvalve]

The ones selling that SQE are called "Porkers".

[bcpumpguy]

In my area, there is only on driller that does 4" wells, while perfectly acceptable, the only way to use these wells is with a 3" pump&motor or 2 line jet pump. I personally hate both. Yes you can put down a 4" pump in a 4" well, but chances are you'll never get it out when it needs to be replaced. Drill a 6" well, use a 4" pump, use a cyclestop or a big tank or a drive and be happy.

[rgabriel]

I really appreciate all the advice I've gotten on this thread. It's helped immensely, I signed the contracts and paid the deposit on Friday.

I had a few things changed, I ended up going with a 25GS 1.5HP and the casing on the well was switched to 5 inch.

I placed my order for the CSV, I ended up getting the PK1AEPS pside-kick. I let everyone know how the final product turned out when everything is up and running.