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Thread: Would a Kohler C3-200 bidet fit on a TOTO CST416M?

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    DIY Junior Member goodfela's Avatar
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    Default Would a Kohler C3-200 bidet fit on a TOTO CST416M?

    Hello everyone,

    My developer is changing the spec on the toilets... we are getting TOTO toilets instead of Kohler toilets.

    I got him to get me a C3-200.... but with the change to TOTO... He told me that it won't fit.

    Is that true? If so, does TOTO have the same type of system?

    Cheers,
    Theo

    http://www.us.kohler.com/webassets/k.../1054180_2.pdf

    Last edited by Terry; 06-23-2012 at 12:49 AM.

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    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodfela View Post
    Hello everyone,

    My developer is changing the spec on the toilets... we are getting TOTO toilets instead of Kohler toilets.

    I got him to get me a C3-200.... but with the change to TOTO... He told me that it won't fit.

    Is that true? If so, does TOTO have the same type of system?

    Cheers,
    Theo
    I thought that the C3-200 is designed to fit on any standard elongated toilet.

    There is actually a national standard for the attachment points and expected sizes of toilet seats. In the US, at least, there are only two sizes of toilet seat: round and elongated. Every toilet has the holes for the seat attachment points in the same place and layout as every other toilet. [Edit: As HJ points out below, this isn't 100-percent correct, because certain designer-series toilets have custom seats. But it is generally true, and, most importantly, the location of the seat mounting holes does not differ by toilet brand, with the exception of toilets that come with custom seats.) So a Bemis/Mayfair elongated seat, for example, will fit on any brand of standard elongated toilet. However, the area behind the bolts, i.e. between them and the tank, is not standard, and the tank may curve or the area between tank and bowl may curve up (i.e. in a one-piece). This may preclude the installation of a bidet seat.

    So it shouldn't matter what brand of toilet you are using, just how it is laid out. Once you know WHICH Toto toilet your developer is installing, you will be able to know for sure whether the C3 will fit; just call Kohler and ask. (Edit: I see that your developer is installing an Aquia II. So call Kohler and ask.)

    That said, why not go with the ORIGINAL bidet seat: the Toto Washlet? It is expressly advertised as fitting on any standard toilet. Folks in Japan have been using the washlet seat for decades. See the selection at totowashlet.com or totousa.com Toto also makes an expensive toilet with a built-in Washlet known as the Neorest. Very popular in Japan, and appearing more and more in high-end bathrooms here in the US.

    Toto has a chart about whether a particular Washlet will fit on a particular Toto toilet. http://www.totousa.com/Portals/0/Bro...omp-1009_2.pdf Bottom line is that everything but the S400 will fit the Aquia II.

    As an aside, your developer is doing the wisest possible thing by giving you a Toto toilet rather than a Kohler, in my opinion. I have had horrible experiences with some beautiful-looking Kohler toilets not offering a good effective flush. Any Toto model is going to give you a great flush, and use simple, standard, available-everywhere replacement parts when the flapper or fill valve components wear out in 5-10 years. (That said, the Aquia has a different, dual-flush, valve, although it uses the standard Korky fill valve.) No gimmicks, just great engineering -- from a model you can get for about $200 to their snazziest gravity toilets which cost in the neighborhood of $800.

    You also might have some fun looking at different models of Toto toilets here on Terry's web site or on totousa.com
    Last edited by Terry; 06-26-2012 at 10:11 AM.

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Some bidet seat attachements are a continuous flat block between the attachment points. Toto's bidets have two pads that contact the bowl at the attachment points (from those I've seen). Someone earlier said that their specific toilet was not perfectly flat between the two mounting holes and their non-Toto bidet would not sit properly. Most toilets off the line are flat there, but even if they aren't, with the Toto bidet design, it doesn't matter. So, it's a luck of the draw on your choices and actual item whether there's a 100% probability it will fit. A Toto bidet will fit on a Toto toilet (and most any other). That isn't guaranteed the other way around.

    On the bidet you've selected, are the attachment points pads or a long flat block?
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    quote; In the US, at least, there are only two sizes of toilet seat: round and elongated.

    Tell that to the owners of American Standard Luxor, Eljer Emblem, Kohler Rochelle, and Crane Criterion toilets. These are just a few of the toilets which do NOT have a "standard" mounting.
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

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    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    quote; In the US, at least, there are only two sizes of toilet seat: round and elongated.

    Tell that to the owners of American Standard Luxor, Eljer Emblem, Kohler Rochelle, and Crane Criterion toilets. These are just a few of the toilets which do NOT have a "standard" mounting.
    You know, I think I had more disclaimer wording in there originally, but took it out because I think my posts get too wordy with exceptions. I hope you concur that generally-speaking the post is correct, and it certainly points him at the correct Toto Washlets that will fit on the specific Toto toilet his developer plans to install. [And that Toto marketing piece I linked to is very helpful because it shows the exact dimensions and shape that must exist behind the hinge posts for each style of Washlet to fit any non-Toto toilet.]

    For what it's worth, I know that the AS Galleria lowboy in my city apartment has a custom seat. (And when my rental apartment building finally rips that dog out, I'm going to ask if I can keep the seat and "tank" cover so I can sell them on ****. I'm sorry I didn't save the tank lids from the three other old toilets I just junked, because they go for about $45 each on ****.)

    It's fair to say, though, isn't it, that with the exception of certain "designer" or "eccentric" toilets, there are two standard-size toilet seats in this country (round and elongated), and that the standard distance between hinge posts is 5 1/2"?

    One thing I didn't mention, because I don't know if it is still relevant, is that Toto makes some kind of hose extender for use when connecting certain Washlets to certain Toto toilets, including at least some Aquias. That is something that whomever is doing the ordering of the parts for him should be sure to check.
    Last edited by wjcandee; 06-22-2012 at 03:49 PM.

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    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    A Toto bidet will fit on a Toto toilet (and most any other)
    This is generally true, but not 100 percent, because there is no round version of the B100 and the S400 doesn't fit quite a few Toto toilets. The Toto marketing piece that I linked to in my post above has the chart with specific models of toilet and bidet listed, as well as essential dimensions for determining the fit on non-Toto toilets.

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    The Kohler C3-200 elongated closed-front toilet seat with bidet functionality
    needs a THU9090 adapter for the water supply on an Aquia bowl.

    Last edited by Terry; 06-23-2012 at 12:50 AM.

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    DIY Engineer Otearai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    That said, why not go with the ORIGINAL bidet seat: the Toto Washlet? It is expressly advertised as fitting on any standard toilet. Folks in Japan have been using the washlet seat for decades. See the selection at totowashlet.com or totousa.com Toto also makes an expensive toilet with a built-in Washlet known as the Neorest. Very popular in Japan, and appearing more and more in high-end bathrooms here in the US.
    Actually, the ORIGINAL advanced toilet seat was introduced in Japan by Inax about a year before Toto introduced the Washlet. Toto realized the seriousness of the challenge that Inax's initiative posed, and was seriously concerned that it (Toto) would go out of business before it could get into the game with its own "shower toilet seat" (as they initially were called). The story is told in more detail in Rose George's book, The Big Necessity.

    Fortunately for Toto, at that time, only about 30 percent of Japanese homes had Western toilets; but the percentage was expanding rapidly during the economic boom, so there was a big new market opening up. And then Inax had a total disaster of a television commercial for its version of shower toilet seat that almost took Inax out of the competition altogether; you can see the Inax commercial on YouTube here:
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaOdP1D_B30" target="_blank">

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaOdP1D_B30
    Toto, for its part, introduced the Washlet with a television commercial starring the Japanese equivalent of Cindi Lauper (Jun Togawa), which you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsw3-qdjwgQ The Toto ad was a HUGE hit, Washlet sales took off, and the rest, as they say, is history. The Toto vs. Inax television ad campaigns went on to become a standard object lesson for advertising industry textbooks.

    Returning to 2012, there remains an important difference in design philosophy between the Toto and Inax toilet seats. Starting from a clean sheet of paper (as it were) to design the first entry in the category, Inax determined that the cleansing stream to the posterior optimally should spray at 70 degrees (from horizontal) -- just 20 degrees away from vertical -- for maximum cleansing effectiveness. Positioned as it needs to be to spray at that angle, the wand from which the spray is directed is not well positioned to use the same wand for a "feminine" cleansing function, so for the feminine cleansing function, Inax uses a dedicated second wand optimized for the purpose. Toto, in order to get by with using a single wand, positions the wand to spray water toward the posterior at 43 degrees from horizontal, actually closer to horizontal than vertical; with the wand so positioned, a separate nozzle on the same wand can be used for feminine cleansing. That 27 degrees of difference in spray angle is a difference that makes a difference.

    Having tried both Inax and Toto toilet seats in Japan, when we purchased an advanced toilet seat for our Toto Vespin II toilet in North America, the model that we purchased from Terry Love was the Inax Clessence.
    Last edited by Terry; 06-26-2012 at 10:06 AM. Reason: formatting

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    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otearai View Post
    Actually, the ORIGINAL advanced toilet seat was introduced in Japan by Inax about a year before Toto introduced the Washlet.
    Thanks for the fascinating history of the development and marketing! I heard much of what I know from my Japanese fiance in light of her desire to add a Washlet to our current setup. I will share this with her; I'm sure she will enjoy it. Thanks again.



    TOTO Video Clip
    Last edited by Terry; 06-26-2012 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Added video clip

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