RV outlet

[Homeownerinburb]

change the breaker.....

I will probably get bashed for something being wrong or not to code but I expect it here.....

If he is changing the breaker, he is working in the panel. Do look at what he wrote. The 10-3 does not actually go where he wants a receptacle. He still needs to drill a hole in the bottom of the wall and fish some wire up into the stud bay. Doing that with 14-2 is going to be lots easier than with 10-3. Lots.

And certainly no loose conductors in a panel or box should be allowed without a wire nut to indicate that they are not in use and to prevent them getting live to current.

[Homeownerinburb]

[QUOTE=Rich B;348368 Change the breaker to a 20 or a 15 if you like and install a good quality recepticle that will fit the AC unit. A single is a good way to limit the circuit to just that AC unit.

I will probably get bashed for something being wrong or not to code but I expect it here.....[/QUOTE]

Oh, and changing the breaker is just NOT optional, it is essential. It is just flat wrong to use a 30 amp breaker in this circumstance. The single receptacle is required by code, but so what? The AC is running and someone comes along and plugs in a vacuum, it is all protected at 30 amp, and the OP has installed a 15 amp receptacle, what happens next?

The OP is well advised to study up and do it right, or if he does not want to take any chances, call an electrician in.

[Rich B]

Read my post.......I did not say changing the breaker was OPTIONAL.
I did not say to work in the live panel if he is a novice.
I DID say get a licensed electrician if he was concerned about doing it to code and safely...
I never advise anyone to work in or on live electrical panels or eqiupment.
I do it all the time but like I said.....I don't advise NOVICES or homeowners to do this work....





Since neither you or I are there we cannot tell exactly what may need to be done to make this right.
MR JW agrees with my post and thats more than good enough for me.....


Have a nice day.....

[jadnashua]

FWIW, when running a 20A circuit, it's perfectly alright to use 15A receptacles. The CB protects the WIRING, not the things plugged into it.

While not the way we do it, in the UK, each thing plugged in has its own fuse or CB...the wiring basically gets an on/off switch, but not a CB at the panel.

[DonL]

14-2 is all you need. And a 15 amp breaker. Don't use a 20 amp breaker with 12ga. There is no upside benefit and it is a hazard. See the thread about the stolen wire just a few below yours. And 14ga is MUCH easier to work with.

What is wrong with 12 gauge wire ?

I would use 12ga. To run a air conditioner, and it would be less of a problem with voltage drop then 14ga.

A 15 amp breaker may trip when the compressor starts with any Head pressure. A 20 amp breaker and 12ga. is the way to go for a air conditioner.

Most window air units have current limits, but do not have Head pressure delay relays.

What is unsafe about using 12ga over 14gauge ? Screw easier to work with.

[Homeownerinburb]

What is wrong with 12 gauge wire ?

I would use 12ga. To run a air conditioner, and it would be less of a problem with voltage drop then 14ga.

A 15 amp breaker may trip when the compressor starts with any Head pressure. A 20 amp breaker and 12ga. is the way to go for a air conditioner.

Most window air units have current limits, but do not have Head pressure delay relays.

What is unsafe about using 12ga over 14gauge ? Screw easier to work with.

1) Go back to what JW was writing about circuit sizes in the discussion of stolen wire from last week for why it is better to work to the smallest ampacity as possible.

2) There will be essentially zero voltage drop issues unless the AC is 100' from the panel. He said it was only a few feet away. Not an issue. If it was, one could still install 12ga but use a 15 amp breaker.

3) The OP posted that the label on the unit indicated something like 11.2amp max. I suppose the head pressure could take the demand past 15 amp long enough to trip the breaker. I'd defer to an AC specialist on that, but I am inclined to think that it would not.

[Homeownerinburb]

Have a nice day.....

No need to get any of your garments in a twist.

We agree. The OP is well advised to get a pro in to set him up if he is at all hesitant.

The OP keeps banging on about having some 10-3 that he does not need, yet he seems desperate to get value out of it.

And it does not go to the window that he wants to set the AC in.

I'd be astonished if a pro would go to the trouble to pull back some 10-3 and then re-purpose it. Why do so? Apparently the OP needs about 10' of 14ga. Good lord. What does that cost if you get the hardware store to spool it off the spool? I could get the job done quicker and cleaner my way, and that is certainly how I would insist the customer let me do it, and how I would advise my neighbor or friend do it, were he/she to ask.

[rrcur]

Ok. Thanks again to all of you for the comments.

For the record, the panel board appears to be fairly new. It's a Murray Catalogue # LC130DC: Model 19 Type 1 enclosure, Type F panelboard with a 100 amp main breaker (service disconnect) inside the panel at the top. It appears to have 30 slots. Of these, 18 are currentyl in use. Of these 18, 14 are Romex-like sheathed cable, and 4 are the original metal-sheathed two-wire cable with the ground (such as it is) by way of the flexible metal jacket. There are no sub-panels, other than a disconnect switch in the detached garage. The garage is fed from the main house panel by buried cable.

It appears to me that the previous owner upgraded the wiring to the kitchen and the bathroom to GFCI circuits and Romex-type wiring when they "re-modeled" several years ago and left the old wiring in the rest of the house. There are a few locations visible in the basement where a sheathed metal cable was extended with Romex, which I don't like very much.

The outlets, other than kitchen and bathroom, are for two-pronged plugs (no ground hole), but the outlet boxes read as grounded at all but two of these outlets. I've been cautioned not to assume this is a machine ground and to be cautious about plugging heavy equipment or large appliances into these.

If I can find some free time, and if I'm feeling brave, I'll probably buy a non-contact voltage detector, shut off the service disconnect and replace the 30 amp breaker mentioedn above with a 15 or 20 amp version.

If this goes well, maybe I'll consider adding a couple more circuits and replacing the accessible sheathed cable in the basement. Second floor and first floor ceiling stuff, I think I leave to someone with more experience.

I'm all good to go on fishing wire and installing the new box under the window for the a/c. I just need to get my act together on the breaker.

[Homeownerinburb]

the panel board appears to be... a Murray Catalogue # LC130DC: Model 19 Type 1 enclosure, Type F panelboard with a 100 amp main breaker (service disconnect) inside the panel at the top.

....

The outlets, other than kitchen and bathroom, are for two-pronged plugs (no ground hole), but the outlet boxes read as grounded at all but two of these outlets. I've been cautioned not to assume this is a machine ground and to be cautious about plugging heavy equipment or large appliances into these.

....buy a non-contact voltage detector, shut off the service disconnect......

If this goes well, maybe I'll consider adding a couple more circuits and replacing the accessible sheathed cable in the basement. Second floor and first floor ceiling stuff, I think I leave to someone with more experience.

I'm all good to go on fishing wire and installing the new box under the window for the a/c. I just need to get my act together on the breaker.

A Murray panel is excellent news: absolutely the most common, solid and readily available panel and breakers. Cheap too. And you have plenty of room, there is no issue of it being a sub panel which can trip up the newbie.

A master disconnect. Seriously. Once you flip that off, you really need to be attempting suicide to end up deceased. This is as modern and as reliable a bit of hardware as you are going to find. Once you flip that to the off position, the buss bars that the breakers hang on will be de-energized. The non-contact tester is an excellent idea.

You can certainly consider fitting three prong outlets where you find a ground. Spend a few dollars: buy the better equipment. Receptacles can be bought all day long for 17 cents each. And they are utter junk. If the receptacles you are considering are costing you $1.50 or so, you are likely buying solid stuff. A clue is the yolk. That is the metal strap at which it is screwed to the box. If it passes all the way behind the receptacle, rather than passing into it at about half its depth, it is likely a good unit.

Even better, but likely part of this sort of receptacle, is it having a bronze spring on one of the screws that ties it to the box. The code used to permit a receptacle to be considered grounded if it just had two screws going thru the yolk (into a metal box). Now it either must have the spring I describe (it is a flat thing) or a wire from the grounding screw to a legitimate ground in the box.

Another aspect of the better receptacles that I like a lot: one does not wrap the wire around the screw. There is a flat plate behind which the bare wire, straight, is inserted, and then the screw torques down on that. I absolutely prefer these and have no problem getting clients to pay the slight (as a fraction of the entire project) cost of the upgrade. Just hold the two in your hands and you will see my point.

If you are going to replace receptacles at all, learn what a multi wire circuit is. They present hazards if not understood, but are easy to understand, if you understand me. Ask and I will tell you more. The point comes down to being careful how you work the neutral, if you have multi-wire circuits in the house.

Anywhere you do not have a ground, you can install a GFI to be assured there is no problem.

Why are you adding circuits? Do you feel an actual need for them? Are you intending to make more use of the basement, such as having a wood working shop down there?

If none of your breakers are tripping in the use that you are putting them to, you probably don't need more circuits.

Having a few more outlets is a different question.

[DonL]

Non-contact testers are a joke and are not a safe way to check if a wire is live.

Many non-contact testers require current to be flowing before it can detect anything.

If you are afraid to use a normal voltmeter, or do not have and do not know how to use one then it is best to call a professional.

A non-contact tester will tell you if a wire has current going thru it, but is not a good tester for checking live deadened wires.

[Chad Schloss]

Non-contact testers are a joke and are not a safe way to check if a wire is live.

Many non-contact testers require current to be flowing before it can detect anything.

If you are afraid to use a normal voltmeter, or do not have and do not know how to use one then it is best to call a professional.

A non-contact tester will tell you if a wire has current going thru it, but is not a good tester for checking live deadened wires.

hmm, my klein non contact dectector works finding dead end live wires. used it two days ago for just such a purpose, with two different circuits. I did have some issues with the $3 one I had from harbor freight though. if any doubt, definately test with a meter.

[Homeownerinburb]

Non-contact testers are a joke and are not a safe way to check if a wire is live.

Many non-contact testers require current to be flowing before it can detect anything.

If you are afraid to use a normal voltmeter, or do not have and do not know how to use one then it is best to call a professional.

A non-contact tester will tell you if a wire has current going thru it, but is not a good tester for checking live deadened wires.

That is absolutely not my experience with my Klien. It has never failed to give me a correct reading, although I do follow the instructions and check it on a known to be live circuit before I trust it to tell me that a circuit is cold.

If you know the brand names of any non-contacts testers that behave as you indicate, please feel free to share. I will make a point of not buying one,

[DonL]

That is absolutely not my experience with my Klien. It has never failed to give me a correct reading, although I do follow the instructions and check it on a known to be live circuit before I trust it to tell me that a circuit is cold.

If you know the brand names of any non-contacts testers that behave as you indicate, please feel free to share. I will make a point of not buying one,

The kind you can buy at wal+mart and the $3 ones from harbor freight, where many DIYers go to buy cheap tools.

I agree some do work fair, but many people buy something cheap that may or may not work for 1 time use.

I just do not trust them, and I will use a shorting wire, just to make sure the line is dead. The shorting wire also works if the line becomes energized for some unknown reason while you are working on it.

A non-contact tester sure beats the tongue test, but a real meter or a neon bulb may be safer.

[Homeownerinburb]

The kind you can buy at wal+mart and the $3 ones from harbor freight, where many DIYers go to buy cheap tools.

I agree some do work fair, but many people buy something cheap that may or may not work for 1 time use.

I just do not trust them, and I will use a shorting wire, just to make sure the line is dead. The shorting wire also works if the line becomes energized for some unknown reason while you are working on it.

A non-contact tester sure beats the tongue test, but a real meter or a neon bulb may be safer.

I think your point should have been to only buy a quality tester. They cannot be had for less than $15 and still be quality. Klein and Greenlee are perfectly reliable.

Often enough I start with the non-contact and then wade in with the multimeter, just to ensure that things are cold. But I feel much better if the non-contact has remained silent before I dig in.

[jadnashua]

My mother's house has BX(?) run to all of the original boxes, and over the years, in the plaster walls, the metal casing has corroded enough so the ground is essentially useless. To get 3-wire (ground contact) receptacles, the safest approved (least expensive) method is to substitute either the breaker for a GFCI or to find the first box on the run and install a GFCI receptacle there, then daisy-chain the rest on the circuit with the load side from the GFCI. For less tech savy people, if it ever trips, this can throw them a big curve since the CB is likely not tripped, but none of the outlets work! But, the better thing to do is to replace the wiring with a true power+ground cable. Some things, like surge suppressors, need the ground connection to provide full protection. And, the true, mechanical wire will allow the CB to trip should there be an internal device error if the chassis ever got energized.

Since many newer appliances all come with a 3-prong plug, this is becoming more of an issue for older homes with 2-prong receptacles.