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Thread: Gary's "trick" and how effective is Iron Out?

  1. #46
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    since we are not allowed to use technical terms like catalyst, words that have more the three syllables, nor are we allowed to use math, charts, field experience, or common sense, I am sorry but I dont think I can be of much help either.

    Using all them teckacal words is done confoosing da ignernt folks what posts da queggins an is only wantin to fix der problem widout spendin no money or lerning nottin

    Check list for the ignorant

    1 -smell your water. Does it smell like anything other than water?
    2 -taste your water. Does it taste like anything other than water?
    3 -rub your water between your thumb and index finger. Does it feel like anything other than water
    4 -look at your water. Does it look like anything other than water

    See how much money you saved by not buying a test kit? Apply that savings to a six pack of beer, drink it and you can forget about your water. Repeat if necessary.
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 06-14-2012 at 04:18 AM.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  2. #47
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Liggy; Have you tested the water for iron just before it enters your softener?
    I do have a question about testing for iron. My water guy tells me that I have to take a sample before the micronizer and before the precipitation tank. He says his test only detects ferrous, not ferric iron.

  3. #48
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    So back to the OP's question. I have posted what Gary said in another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Before you do that, mix a 1/2 cup of Iron Out or Super IO to 2-3 gallons of water and pour that into the salt tank brine well if you have one, or down along the side of the salt if not. Wait two hours and do another manual regeneration.

    Don't over fill the salt tank that salt water overflows on the floor.

    When the backwash starts and gets a full flow to drain (it takes maybe a minute), unplug the control valve and let it run for 15-20 minutes and then plug it back in. When that is finished it will go into slow rinse/brine draw (sucks salt brine out of the salt tank), time 10-12 minutes and unplug the control valve for 20 minutes and then plug it in and let the regeneration finish on its own. Then see how the water feels.
    Granted, I am the FNG DIY owner, so perhaps I misunderstand the controls; for sure, I know that different valves operate differently, so I can only speak to the little I know about the 7000SXT. But...

    If my B1 cycle is set to 10 minutes, unplugging the valve to make it backwash for 15-20 minutes makes sense if you really want to stir the resin and get all the loose junk off.

    But if my BD cycle is set for 60, and I wait 10 minutes into the cycle to draw the SIO/brine into the resin, then unplug it... what will happen is it will draw SIO/brine under power for 10 minutes, then draw SIO/brine for 20 minutes (or until the air check is hit), and when I plug it back in, I still have 50 minutes remaining on that position (valve remembers last position at time of power interruption). So what I am doing is basically extending the BD cycle by 20 minutes, all the while either SIO/brine is flowing thru the resin, or rinse water is... wouldn't it make more sense to draw for 10 mins, unplug the valve and bypass the water flow, allowing more time for the SIO to contact and work on the iron? Then when ready (20 minutes later, or 3 hours later, whichever one prefers for contact time), put the valve back in service, plug in the valve, and let the cycle finish?

    I can see where introducing SIO on a regular basis might not make more contact time necessary, particularly if one follows the instructions for SIO use, but it seems to me that more contact time in resin that has gone untreated for some time would only remove more iron than just letting some flow thru without stopping.

    Flame suit on...

  4. #49
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    Oversaturated - According to free dictionary dot com, it means to saturate to excess. In my feeble, two-month-old mind, if you watered your yard till it was FULL of water, it would be saturated. If you added even more water, until there were puddles sitting on the ground, that would be oversaturated.
    Officially that would be called 'ponding' but...

    The context of your use of "oversaturated" was concerning salt brine in the salt tank of a water softener.

    You can not "oversaturate" salt brine. Well UNLESS you are talking about the undissolved salt in the tank. You can't "oversaturate" a glass or pitcher of sweetened ice tea either, unless you're talking about the undissolved sugar laying in the bottom of the glass or pitcher.

    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    Precipitation tank - According to wordnik dot com, a receptacle into which a liquid is run to give an opportunity for any solid matter carried in it to be precipitated. Sometimes precipitation is promoted in such a tank by adding certain ingredients or by a change of temperature.
    In relation to the air injection iron filter system we are talking about, the oxidation takes place in the retention tank and the filter. The above description says the precipitation has already occurred when the water is run into the receptacle.

    In this air injection iron system the precipitation is not happening fully before he is sending the water out to his filter. That happens when there is insufficient TIME (retention) for the oxidation to complete and the solids to fall out of the solution/water exiting the tank. The incomplete precipitation is OK because Birm is an excellent sediment filter mineral but, if it loads up with rust, it can not "enhance" the remaining need for more oxidation and that allows ferrous iron out of the filter into his softener. Probably along with some of the precipitates (ferric iron/rust) to foul the resin.

    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    Retention tank - According to my research, mostly used to remove E. coli or coliform. "The use of retention tanks for iron bacteria, sulfur and iron applications is a way to create extra income and service calls for in home sale companies and online companies who are either ignorant or looking for residual income from unsuspecting customers." http://www.***********.com/retention_tanks.htm
    That is from budget water... and I caution anyone that believes their claim that retention is not needed for iron removal with an air injection Birm filter system.

    Their only way to get around using a retention tank is to inject chlorine constantly. "For example a simple chlorine feeder and Terminox™ tank can remove iron bacteria and sulfur from problem well water with no carbon tanks or retention tanks at all." Note that iron is not mentioned.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #50
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Officially that would be called 'ponding' but...

    Thanks for the responses on the tanks. Helps us all to understand more.

    As for ponding (never heard it before, had to look it up, so thanks to Gary for giving me "The Word of The Day"!

    Ponding is a term that refers to the unwanted pooling of water, typically on a flat roof.

    When water is diverted into a lower area that has no outlet or is not suitable for drainage, water will begin to pool, and over time the weight of the water will create a deeper pool allowing more water to sit, eventually creating a permanent water feature.

    If I water my yard too much, and there is pooling, it is oversaturated, but it's going to drain soon enough.

  6. #51
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    If my B1 cycle is set to 10 minutes, unplugging the valve to make it backwash for 15-20 minutes makes sense if you really want to stir the resin and get all the loose junk off.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    But if my BD cycle is set for 60, and I wait 10 minutes into the cycle to draw the SIO/brine into the resin, then unplug it... what will happen is it will draw SIO/brine under power for 10 minutes, then draw SIO/brine for 20 minutes (or until the air check is hit), and when I plug it back in, I still have 50 minutes remaining on that position (valve remembers last position at time of power interruption). So what I am doing is basically extending the BD cycle by 20 minutes, all the while either SIO/brine is flowing thru the resin, or rinse water is... wouldn't it make more sense to draw for 10 mins, unplug the valve and bypass the water flow, allowing more time for the SIO to contact and work on the iron? Then when ready (20 minutes later, or 3 hours later, whichever one prefers for contact time), put the valve back in service, plug in the valve, and let the cycle finish?
    The brining usually takes 20 minutes to be fully drawn out of the tank and have the air check close. And recall adding the extra 2 gallons of water to the salt tank, that will probably take longer to draw it out than your normal salt dose does right? When done you want all the water in the tank to be replaced so the IO and additional brine is gone. So you probably would need more time to do that wouldn't you think? But as I've said, do it whichever way you want to, or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    I I can see where introducing SIO on a regular basis might not make more contact time necessary, particularly if one follows the instructions for SIO use,
    That's correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    Ibut it seems to me that more contact time in resin that has gone untreated for some time would only remove more iron than just letting some flow thru without stopping.
    I suggest repeating the process is best. You get more salt (2 gals*3lbs each gal and each time = 12 additional total lbs) to help you clean the resin instead of shutting off the water to only add more time to one time of the process while using only the normal sat dose. Plus you have an additional nice long backwash before hitting the resin with more fresh IO.

    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    IFlame suit on...
    BS, discuss instead of nit picking gotchyas and anyone can have an intelligent conversion. Well, LOL not so much with cartoonyguy Tommy and water solutions Kinetico salesman Andy...
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #52

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    Gary, I spent the better part of an hour listening to a rant from my boss that had nothing, absolutely, nothing to do with me. This was not an intelligent conversation, and, it was amazing. Her eyes were flaring, her nostrils were flaring, and finally, when I had enough of it, I said, " this is really no big deal." Her face turned red & purple, her veins popped out, so, I said it again, lol. I was now starting to enjoy it, lol. I wish I could think of a nic name for her. Somehow or another, I am sure... I will be implicated into this because she was just looking for a fight. This was more than mare nit picking, she was out to crucify someone. I say, not me, not me. lol. Now, today, I get to work with the, great one. lol.

  8. #53
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    BS, discuss instead of nit picking gotchyas and anyone can have an intelligent conversion. Well, LOL not so much with cartoonyguy Tommy and water solutions Kinetico salesman Andy...

    Intelligent discussion? With you? Really? Nit-picking? If I wanted to, I could go back through literally hundreds of threads here and elsewhere where YOU are ALWAYS the first one to start with the nit-picking, insults, belittling comments etc and now you have the BALLS to post that BS? Give us a break Einstein and take you meds for a change.
    Even when I leave your comments alone you can't stop with your usual crap IE the quote above. You act like a 3 year throwing a tantrum most of the time. How on earth do you expect anyone to take your posts seriously?
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  9. #54
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Intelligent discussion? With you?
    LOL how true! I almost spit my coffee all over my screen when I read that. It's just like watching a dubbed foreign film. What you hear doesn't match with what you see!

    My turn to nit pick... he said "intelligent conversion", not conversation, not discussion, conversion. Don't expect him to convert to anything intelligent.

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