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Thread: Gary's "trick" and how effective is Iron Out?

  1. #31
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    And yet it's you that doesn't understand that my shutting off the power while in the brine draw cycle after a specific length of time, leaves some fresh IO solution and brine in the "brine well" as you call the salt tank, where dittohead Alan has you sucking it all out of the "brine well" at once...
    LOL There you go again with vague instructions, deliberately so that you can later claim that we didn't follow them to a T. What is the point of stopping the draw and rinsing out the Iron Out right away rather than giving it some contact time to work?

  2. #32
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    There you go imagining facts not in evidence. I don't have an irrigation system. I do have a simple garden hose connected before the iron filter for an oscillating lawn sprinkler but it doesn't get used much, in fact hardly ever.
    It's still acceptable to call that 'irrigation'. And I am commenting on your statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    The other hose bibs connected to filtered water, feed soaker hoses that don't have any significant flow rate. Those too, hardly ever get used, and are just there for when we go on vacation. The wife captures rain water for the foundation beds and will on occasion, use the hose and a hand nozzle if she runs out of water in the rain barrels.
    Still acceptable to be called 'irrigation'.

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    As for the higher pressure, I do enjoy it for the shower. The micronizer bypass has been reduced to keep air sucking at the higher pressure and that rate limits the GPM. The downside of that is that the backwash GPM on the iron filter is marginal. That in and of itself would not cause iron bleed-through, since a dirty media bed filters better than a clean one.
    But loaded up Birm can't oxidize any ferrous iron getting through the air oxidation... Reading that leaves no doubts as to what is causing your softener to have to deal with iron that gets through the air injection and Birm filter. I guess you mistakenly think backwashing is going to get all the rust off the Birm...

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    When I notice a reduction of flow through it, I will jack up the pressure higher, open up the micronizer bypass to increase GPM, and give the bed a thorough manual backwash or two. It's usually the same time that I will do a manual Iron Out resin cleaning.
    By the time you notice it it's way too late.

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    LOL There you go again with vague instructions, deliberately so that you can later claim that we didn't follow them to a T. What is the point of stopping the draw and rinsing out the Iron Out right away rather than giving it some contact time to work?
    Are you just playing dumb or is it factual? The slow rinse/brine draw draw doesn't stop unless you turn off the water!! I didn't say to turn it off, remember? So if you want more contact time, shut off the water for as long as you want to; really it's OK and just fine with me.

    BTW, I gave you the specific explicit precise directions of my "trick" as cartonykid Tommy called it, a few days ago and you have been questioning them ever since.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post

    But loaded up Birm can't oxidize any ferrous iron getting through the air oxidation... Reading that leaves no doubts as to what is causing your softener to have to deal with iron that gets through the air injection and Birm filter. I guess you mistakenly think backwashing is going to get all the rust off the Birm...
    BIRM does not change ferrous iron to ferric iron through oxidation. It is a catalyst. Period. Oxygen is the oxidant. BIRM works under certain water conditions and not under others.

    Call it a retention tank or a precipitation tank, doesn't really matter as long as it has a drain at the bottom to remove sediment or precipitants.

    Air injection systems using a precipitation tank uses the tank for two purposes; one--to oxidize iron (and other elements) into ferric state and two--to create dissolved oxygen levels of 15% or more in the water to be even and consistent in order to make the BIRM work effectively.

    If the water coming out of the top of the precipitation tank is already ferric (red water), then I recommend draining the precipitants more often. If ferric iron is chronic, then I would recommend adding Filter Ag to the top of the BIRM. I don't believe BIRM is intended to filter but to act as a catalyst in enhancing iron conversion.

    Water enters the tank through an elevated tube and exits through the top. The tank has a drain lower than the incoming tube. Neglecting to drain the precipitants causes the precipitated iron to accumulate and rise above the incoming tube, causing it to agitate and travel north out of the tank.

  4. #34
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by water solutions View Post
    BIRM does not change ferrous iron to ferric iron through oxidation. It is a catalyst. Period. Oxygen is the oxidant. BIRM works under certain water conditions and not under others.
    "Birm, acting as a catalyst between the oxygen and the soluble iron compounds, enhances the oxidation reaction of Fe++ to Fe+++". That would be ferrous to ferric no, and on the surface of the Birm right?

    That's from:
    http://www.clackcorp.com/downloads/i.../birm_2350.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by water solutions View Post
    Call it a retention tank or a precipitation tank, doesn't really matter as long as it has a drain at the bottom to remove sediment or precipitants.
    Yes that works for Kinetico and their sales people like you, and other national companies that want to be different (read keep their customers in the dark) so they make up their own names for things instead of using the industry standard names. Retention means time and it takes the right amount of retention time for precipitation to take place.

    Quote Originally Posted by water solutions View Post
    Air injection systems using a precipitation tank uses the tank for two purposes; one--to oxidize iron (and other elements) into ferric state and two--to create dissolved oxygen levels of 15% or more in the water to be even and consistent in order to make the BIRM work effectively.
    So you are saying retention/contact time isn't involved with a "precipitation" tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by water solutions View Post
    I don't believe BIRM is intended to filter but to act as a catalyst in enhancing iron conversion.
    "The physical characteristics of Birm provide an excellent filter media".

    That is also from the link above, repeated here;
    http://www.clackcorp.com/downloads/i.../birm_2350.pdf

    Two serious errors in one post Andy.... and I didn't count the one where you skipped over retention/contact time. And what is that picture supposed to show us?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #35
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    "cartonykid" I can't find this word in the dictionary and spell check is having a hemorrhage with it too. LOL

    If it's supposed to be cartoon(y) kid, I'm not the one with Donald Duck for an avatar which BTW is nice but incorrect for the quote below it which is more correctly associated with Porky Pig.

    Why are you dragging me into this? I'm just by-standing watching the fun although what I have gleaned from this mostly useless and stupid conversation is that there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides and the juvenile need to make sarcastic remarks based on improper word use or poor descriptions of either processes, equipment or both. Keep it up though, it's most entertaining and perhaps the guy that lambasted me on another thread for remarks I made there has by now noticed that I am rarely the instigator here. LOL
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  6. #36
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    From www.dixionary.com: cartonykid - [kahr-tony kid]
    noun The picture of a lost kid on the back of certain milk cartons.

  7. #37
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Wow, who'd a thunk. They are just making up words now aren't they?
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  8. #38
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    Someone is making up words...

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  10. #40
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Yeah I've noticed that too, like "oversaturated", once something is saturated, you don't get it more saturated. Or, "precipitation tank" for retention tank. Or garden hose to hook to a sprinkler that isn't a type of irrigation.

    Cartoonyguy Tommy....
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #41

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    BIRM does not oxidize iron. It is a catalyst. That would be like saying stepping on the gas makes your car go forward. It doesn't. It increases the speed but doesn't make it go forward. A catalyst increases reaction but it doesn't make it react. That is the ultimate basics in water treatment media. You said it yourself when you quoted the word "enhance". But tio say that BIRM oxidizes iron is not correct. You need to understand what catalyst is and does.

    Also not correct--again--in describing me...it's getting kind of funny. I am not sure what works for Kinetico or why that was even brought up---again. But I seem to remember someone going on and on and on and on and on about the Kinetico warranty and then being proven he was wrong. Instead of coming back and admitting, he claimed that Kinetico, Inc. was keeping him in the dark---again.

    If you don't know what the picture is, then I am not surprised by your knowledge (or lack thereof) of just what it is we are talking about. Can someone else help him here?

  12. #42
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by water solutions View Post
    Can someone else help him here?
    I don't think so. I tried showing Gary a cutaway drawing of my tank but he still described it as something different.

    I don't have a retention tank. I have a hydro-pneumatic precipitation tank purpose built to precipitate iron through oxidation.

  13. #43
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    since we are not allowed to use technical terms like catalyst, words that have more the three syllables, nor are we allowed to use math, charts, field experience, or common sense, I am sorry but I dont think I can be of much help either.

  14. #44
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Yeah I've noticed that too, like "oversaturated", once something is saturated, you don't get it more saturated. Or, "precipitation tank" for retention tank. Or garden hose to hook to a sprinkler that isn't a type of irrigation.

    Cartoonyguy Tommy....
    Oversaturated - According to free dictionary dot com, it means to saturate to excess. In my feeble, two-month-old mind, if you watered your yard till it was FULL of water, it would be saturated. If you added even more water, until there were puddles sitting on the ground, that would be oversaturated.

    Precipitation tank - According to wordnik dot com, a receptacle into which a liquid is run to give an opportunity for any solid matter carried in it to be precipitated. Sometimes precipitation is promoted in such a tank by adding certain ingredients or by a change of temperature.

    According to science dictionary, a sewage tank in which a chemical is added to the sewage before it passes to the sedimentation tanks

    Retention tank - According to my research, mostly used to remove E. coli or coliform. "The use of retention tanks for iron bacteria, sulfur and iron applications is a way to create extra income and service calls for in home sale companies and online companies who are either ignorant or looking for residual income from unsuspecting customers." http://www.***********.com/retention_tanks.htm

    Another site says: THERE IS A DRAIN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE TANK. OPEN IT PERIODICALLY TO FLUSH THE SETTLED SOLIDS OUT. SOLIDS DO NOT SETTLE PERFECTLY. OFTEN THEY WILL STICK TO THE SIDE OF THE TANK. THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO FLUSH THEM OUT IS TO EMPTY THE TANK. OPEN THE INLET AND ALLOW WATER TO FLOW IN WHILE THE DRAIN IS STILL OPEN. THIS WILL ALLOW THE TANK TO BE CLEANED MORE THOROUGHLY. RUN THE WATER UNTIL IT APPEARS CLEAR. (LL, based on your iron problems, you might consider doing this if you haven't been already. Just a thought.)

  15. #45
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Ahhhhhh...but I also see that the word is not yet defined. Maybe Einstein can come up with something when he's not busy loosing arguments
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

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