Gary's "trick" and how effective is Iron Out?

**LLigetfa** · 06-10-2012, 06:01 AM

Below is a post of Gary's from another thread that I'd like to discuss here. The line I redacted from the second quote is in the first quote.

Originally Posted by Gary Slusser

When the backwash starts and gets a full flow to drain (it takes maybe a minute), unplug the control valve and let it run for 15-20 minutes and then plug it back in...

I have a question about the extended backwash. My softener has cam driven valves and so the time is not adjustable and I've always wondered why the backwash is so long. My softener dumps into my sump pit and so I can see the backwash water is crystal clear so it must be backwashing invisible dirt. Could it perhaps need the time to stir up the resin? I'd like to shorten the time, not extend it as Gary suggests.

Originally Posted by Gary Slusser

Before you do that, mix a 1/2 cup of Iron Out or Super IO to 2-3 gallons of water and pour that into the salt tank brine well if you have one, or down along the side of the salt if not. Wait two hours and do another manual regeneration.

Don't over fill the salt tank that salt water overflows on the floor.
. . .
redacted
. . .

When that is finished it will go into slow rinse/brine draw (sucks salt brine out of the salt tank), time 10-12 minutes and unplug the control valve for 20 minutes and then plug it in and let the regeneration finish on its own. Then see how the water feels.

As for stopping the clock immediately after the brine/IO solution has all been sucked out of the brine tank, I fully agree with. From my experience with IO, it needs time to do its thing. I simply turn off the water and unplug the clock so that the cams don't advance. I found that works better than simply adding IO to the brine tank and letting the regen run its normal course.

It's easy to freeze time with my mechanical clock and cams, but I do wonder how it's done with electronic clocks.

I've recently switched to Morton System Saver II with resin cleaner and wonder if it will more effectively clean the resin without having to "stop the clock" as is needed with Iron Out. Reading the MSDS, the ingredients are as follows:
Sodium Chloride >99.5
Citrates <0.1
Anionic Surfactant <0.01

**LLigetfa** · 06-10-2012, 06:23 AM

Oh, one more question...

Gary, you said to "unplug the control valve for 20 minutes" in both procedures. Now, in the first I would expect the intent is to extend the length of time it is backwashing so I'm guessing unplugging the control valve does not stop the flow. On to the second part however... the brine is sucked up using a venturi and blended into the flow so would not the flow continue even after you unplug the control valve? I'm guessing one should infer from your instructions to manually turn off the water for the second procedure.

**Gary Slusser** · 06-10-2012, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by LLigetfa

Oh, one more question...

Gary, you said to "unplug the control valve for 20 minutes" in both procedures. Now, in the first I would expect the intent is to extend the length of time it is backwashing so I'm guessing unplugging the control valve does not stop the flow.

On to the second part however... the brine is sucked up using a venturi and blended into the flow so would not the flow continue even after you unplug the control valve? I'm guessing one should infer from your instructions to manually turn off the water for the second procedure.

You need to put the sentence/paragraph that you moved back where it was and then reread what I said.

All the brine will not be drawn out when you plug it back in.

You can shut off the water to the softener during brine draw if you want to but not during backwash.

BTW, Iron Out converts rust (ferric iron) to 'invisible dirt', so looking at the drain water is not going to tell you when the conversion if finished.

If you have a day timer/time clock type control valve you normally can not change the length of time each of the cycle positions of a regeneration run for. Electronic controls allow you to if you can find out how to do it; many service manuals that come with a softener do not tell you how.

**LLigetfa** · 06-10-2012, 11:07 AM

Since the backwash happens before the brine cycle which is where the Iron Out is introduced, the fact that Iron Out makes the iron invisible has no bearing on my question. So what does the extended backwash do? If there was turbidity in the water, I could perhaps see a longer backwash cycle.

I'm still not clear on stopping the flow 10 or 12 minutes into the brine cycle. You at first made no mention of it and later make it sound like it is optional. I guess I'm confused as to why to unplug the control valve.

**F6Hawk** · 06-10-2012, 11:12 AM

Wouldn't unplugging valve while drawing brine (and SIO) into the resin allow the cycle to stop, and keep the SIO working on the resin longer? (I'm thinking of my 7000SXT, electronic meter valve)

**Tom Sawyer** · 06-10-2012, 11:19 AM

It is important to begin using Iron Out early on because once the resin bed is badly fouled, all the Iron out and back washing in the world won't clean it up.

**LLigetfa** · 06-10-2012, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by F6Hawk

Wouldn't unplugging valve while drawing brine (and SIO) into the resin allow the cycle to stop, and keep the SIO working on the resin longer? (I'm thinking of my 7000SXT, electronic meter valve)

Well, that is the question that Gary doesn't want to answer. If the water stops flowing when you pull the plug, what is the point of pulling the plug during the backwash cycle?

If pulling the plug keeps the water flowing during the backwash cycle, would it also keep the water flowing during the brine cycle? Actually it's called the brine and rinse cycle because once the brine is all sucked through, the rest of the flow time is rinsing. If it keeps flowing, it gets rinsed right away and has no extra time to do its work.

I use Iron Out for various cleaning tasks and any kind of buildup requires soaking for a long time. I have to take apart my micronizer periodically and soak it. Same thing with the AVC on my precipitation tank. It took a 24 hour soak to get the AVC clean. A quick dip doesn't do squat.

**Gary Slusser** · 06-10-2012, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by LLigetfa

Since the backwash happens before the brine cycle which is where the Iron Out is introduced, the fact that Iron Out makes the iron invisible has no bearing on my question. So what does the extended backwash do? If there was turbidity in the water, I could perhaps see a longer backwash cycle.

I'm still not clear on stopping the flow 10 or 12 minutes into the brine cycle. You at first made no mention of it and later make it sound like it is optional. I guess I'm confused as to why to unplug the control valve.

Extended backwash cleans the resin better and flushes broken beads to drain while reclassifying the beads in the column of resin. BTW, unless you have some fairly dirty water, you can't see the turbidity in it.

In the context of a guy with a badly iron fouled resin bed I said to turn the power off to allow more time for the IO to work on his resin. For regular maintenance, it isn't needed so I don't mention it.

You should ask Tom how he knows IO won't clean up iron fouled resin, or do you think he'd take the time to use my "trick" as he calls it?

**Tom Sawyer** · 06-10-2012, 05:42 PM

Ooooh Ooooooooh Ask me, ask me LOL Why don't you ask me?

It is important to begin using Iron Out early on because once the resin bed is badly fouled, all the Iron out and back washing in the world won't clean it up.

See, I made the part you missed bigger and changed the color so you could follow along Einstein. LOL

I have NEVER in over 35 years of installing and servicing water filtration equipment know anyone in the business (and I mean installing and servicing, not taking orders and drop shipping product) that doesn't know about Iron Out and your "trick" but you like to call it your trick because it's one of the few you have. Now quit trolling and post something useful for a change.

Liggy; If you let the bed go too long all the iron out in the world won't bring it back. Dosing with I/O is certainly worth a try but anymore than twice without results is a waste of time. I have pulled fouled resin from tanks that looked like red mud and while it can be rinsed off in a big bucket and treated in the big bucket with Iron Out, unless you are a homeowner and doing the job yourself it is not worth the labor to have someone else do it and frankly, it's a lot of work and hardly worth the effort if you do it. This I/O issue is the main reason why I never use a softener to remove iron. While the equipment is certainly capable of iron removal, unless it is regularly and properly maintained there are going to be problems down the road.

**LLigetfa** · 06-10-2012, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Gary Slusser

Extended backwash cleans the resin better and flushes broken beads to drain while reclassifying the beads in the column of resin.

Since the IO is not introduced until later, the "cleaning" action would be like putting a load of clothes in the washing machine and not using soap. I guess some dirt would get rubbed off just like it does in my iron filter.

When I backwash my iron filter, the iron is very visible in the drain water. I can do two back-to-back backwash cycles on the iron filter and the drain water still has visible iron oxide albeit not as concentrated. I have never seen any turbidity in the softener backwash and wondered why the cycle is so long which was why I asked. I could see that stirring the beads would be good.