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Thread: variable bringing

  1. #31
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    How does a less than 6lbs/cuft salt dose reduce water quality? At the end of a regeneration all the used resin is fully regenerated the same as it is with 6 lbs or more.
    Perhaps lifespeed realizes that lower brine amounts leaves more hardness in the resin. And then, when soft water makes its way down thru the resin, some of the sodium departs said soft water, and regenerates the resin below that wasn't regenerated due to less salt being used, and therefore, some "hardness leakage" may occur.

    Now, since water is still considered soft from 0-3 gpg, it will probably not be a huge factor to most residential applications. But you asked HOW it affects water quality, not if the end user CARES if it does.
    Last edited by F6Hawk; 06-10-2012 at 12:40 AM.

  2. #32
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    Perhaps lifespeed realizes that lower brine amounts leaves more hardness in the resin. And then, when soft water makes its way down thru the resin, some of the sodium departs said soft water, and regenerates the resin below that wasn't regenerated due to less salt being used, and therefore, some "hardness leakage" may occur.

    Now, since water is still considered soft from 0-3 gpg, it will probably not be a huge factor to most residential applications. But you asked HOW it affects water quality, not if the end user CARES if it does.
    We are talking about hardness in the softened water, and dittohead is bringing in ppm of hardness instead of talking gpg of hardness that is used in residential softening but..

    Perhaps you and Lifespeed don't understand that whatever the high efficiency salt dose is it will be sufficient to regenerate the capacity of the used resin. We started out with fully regenerated resin, used say 20k and regenerate the 20 K, where do you see resin with hardness on it?

    I think you've taken to heart some of the twin tank softener selling guys marketing hype about upflow/counter current regeneration. That should only be applied to boiler and other waters that require a max of X number of ppm and no more. They don't deal with gpg as residential softening does.

    That 0-3 gpg, that is of the raw water and is used to determine IF 'you' would benefit from buying a softener.

    When you have a softener, it should always produce water with no more than 1 gpg of hardness break through, so says the Water Quality Association.

    I say, if we can get it down to no more than 1 gpg, we can get it down to 0 gpg. And for many years I've done that for all sizes of houses, families and businesses regardless of their peak demand flow rates. But you don't have to believe me if you don't want to. Or you might want to try my way for a month or two and see for yourself. Does your 7000 record the highest gpm for you? If not and you over run the SFR of the resin, you might mistakenly think you're not regenerating with enough salt.
    Last edited by Terry; 06-11-2012 at 10:03 AM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #33
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Default implemented variable brining

    The reason for my inquiry about variable brining is I thought it might allow more-frequent regenerations for my 1.5 cu ft system without increasing overall salt useage, wasting salt/capacity. With moderate hardness of 7 grains, and low water use the capacity of 3857 gallons (not including additional 10% reserve) takes about three weeks to consume.

    So, my thinking is I will regen more often, even though I still have capacity left. But I'll use variable brining to implement brine fill first, wait 60 minutes (SV 60 in the programming?), and only use maybe 4.5 lbs per regen instead of the full 9 to regen 30K capacity of the system when it is used near capacity.

    So far it seems to be going through the regen fine. I noticed when I first switched modes (VT dfff, CT fdPb) to variable brining it seemed to activate the brine fill briefly, and displayed "UD sync" while it did this. I programmed the valve to begin it's cycle in a few minutes, and it appeared to go through the BF cycle with minimal time. I assume this was a result of it resetting capacity to full, so its calculation thought it did not need to add brine at all. I added enough water to dissolve 22 lbs of salt to make sure this regen would put the softener at full capacity.

    Will this work? I won't be able to observe the softener correctly meter the brine until the next regen. I assume it will only fill for half the time it normally would, if the capacity is only half used.

    Is a softener at full 30K/ft capacity at the end of a regen, even if less salt than 15lbs/ft was used? eg: started at 30K capacity, used 20K, then regen with 6 lbs/ft to get back to 30K "full" capacity. Or is the capacity only 20K now? In other words, do you use capacity starting at full, or add capacity starting from empty?

    I checked the hardness before starting the regen and it was 0 gpg. But I was still 600 gal short of the 10% safety margin, even though it had been 21 days.

    DF Gal
    VT dfff
    CT fdPb
    C 30,000
    H 7
    RS SF
    SF 10
    DO 10
    RT 2:45
    B1 10
    BD 60
    B2 6
    RR 8
    BF 13
    SV 60
    FM t1.2
    Last edited by lifespeed; 06-10-2012 at 11:14 PM.

  4. #34
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    Is a softener at full 30K/ft capacity at the end of a regen, even if less salt than 15lbs/ft was used? eg: started at 30K capacity, used 20K, then regen with 6 lbs/ft to get back to 30K "full" capacity. Or is the capacity only 20K now? In other words, do you use capacity starting at full, or add capacity starting from empty?
    Assuming a 1 cu ft softener, it takes 15 lbs to regen 30K, 10=27K, 8=24K, 6=20K, 4=16K

    If you set your salt for 6 lbs or 20K, and it starts with 30K, then you will regen 20K when it reaches that 20K worth of softening. In a perfect world, said softener will use 20K, still have 10K of capacity, and regen 20K.

  5. #35
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post

    DF Gal
    VT dfff
    CT fdPb
    C 30,000
    H 7
    Did you mean CT fdbr?

  6. #36
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    Did you mean CT fdbr?
    No, my controller really displayed that. What you showed is in the 7000SXT service manual,
    not in my unit firmware of recent vintage.

  7. #37
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    The reason for my inquiry about variable brining is I thought it might allow more-frequent regenerations for my 1.5 cu ft system without increasing overall salt useage, wasting salt/capacity. With moderate hardness of 7 grains, and low water use the capacity of 3857 gallons (not including additional 10% reserve) takes about three weeks to consume.
    It would if you have the variable brining feature on your control valve but... I don't think your version of the 7000 has variable brining, does it? But then variable brining also uses a lot more water. IMO 3 weeks is way too long between regenerations.

    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    So, my thinking is I will regen more often, even though I still have capacity left. But I'll use variable brining to implement brine fill first, wait 60 minutes (SV 60 in the programming?), and only use maybe 4.5 lbs per regen instead of the full 9 to regen 30K capacity of the system when it is used near capacity.
    Yes that is how variable brining works, but 60 minutes is too short and should be at least 120 minutes so all the salt can dissolve into the refill water before it is used.

    Question, when your vehicle gets down to say a 1/4 tank and you refuel, did you waste the mileage of the 1/4 tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    So far it seems to be going through the regen fine. I noticed when I first switched modes (VT dfff, CT fdPb) to variable brining it seemed to activate the brine fill briefly, and displayed "UD sync" while it did this. I programmed the valve to begin it's cycle in a few minutes, and it appeared to go through the BF cycle with minimal time. I assume this was a result of it resetting capacity to full, so its calculation thought it did not need to add brine at all. I added enough water to dissolve 22 lbs of salt to make sure this regen would put the softener at full capacity.
    Well I went and looked it up.... If you have the SXT timer, your 7000 does not have variable brining, it has variable RESERVE.

    Check it out;
    http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com...ck+7000SXT.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    Is a softener at full 30K/ft capacity at the end of a regen, even if less salt than 15lbs/ft was used? eg: started at 30K capacity, used 20K, then regen with 6 lbs/ft to get back to 30K "full" capacity. Or is the capacity only 20K now? In other words, do you use capacity starting at full, or add capacity starting from empty?
    Using my old guy memory and then my calculator, I say 30K - 20K leaves 10K in the bed/tank and then regenerating the used 20K + the remaining 10K that was left in the tank, I get 30K, although I only had to use 6lbs/cuft (9 lbs) of salt to get the 20K per regeneration instead of 15lbs/cuft (22.5lbs). Now it is an old calculator I'm using...

    Let's us say you have a 20 gallon fuel tank in a vehicle and a 1/4 tank of fuel on the gauge. You fill it with 3/4 of a tank and have a full tank, and it only cost you the price of 3/4 tank instead of the whole 20 gallons. Does that help?

    As to the programming, I am not up on it enough to know if it is right or wrong.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  8. #38
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Let's us say you have a 20 gallon fuel tank in a vehicle and a 1/4 tank of fuel on the gauge. You fill it with 3/4 of a tank and have a full tank, and it only cost you the price of 3/4 tank instead of the whole 20 gallons. Does that help?
    Does the fullness of your gas tank depend on the amount of gas it is soaked in before draining out the all the gas you will use to operate your car? Pretty sure the gas tank analogy is not valid . . .

  9. #39
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    The gas tank analogy kind of works, LS... the tank's capacity is 20 gallons, you use 3/4 of it, or 15 gallons, and it will take 15 gallons to refill it. The last 5 were still there, if needed (kind of like a reserve), so they don't need to be replaced. (nvm if you have an innacurate gauge or other anamoly, we are talking capacity of the tank).

    For resin, if the capacity is 20K (1 cu ft @ 6 lbs salt), you use 3/4 of it, or 15,000 grains, and it will take enough salt to replenish the usage, with about 5,000 grains remaining in the resin which was not used. Provided you oversaturate with enough salt to replenish those used 15K grains, you now have a max capacity of 20K again. Now, it stands to reason that not 100% of the media will take on sodium, and therefore the next time, you may not have exactly 20K of capacity... but for all practical purposes, your water will be soft, and the little hardness that snuck by will go undetected. (Unless you are testing with something more precise than the Hach 5B)

    At least, that's how I understand it. Feel free to shoot down my theory, oh ye gods of sodium-enhanced water!

  10. #40
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    The gas tank analogy kind of works, LS... the tank's capacity is 20 gallons, you use 3/4 of it, or 15 gallons, and it will take 15 gallons to refill it. The last 5 were still there, if needed (kind of like a reserve), so they don't need to be replaced. (nvm if you have an innacurate gauge or other anamoly, we are talking capacity of the tank).

    For resin, if the capacity is 20K (1 cu ft @ 6 lbs salt), you use 3/4 of it, or 15,000 grains, and it will take enough salt to replenish the usage, with about 5,000 grains remaining in the resin which was not used. Provided you oversaturate with enough salt to replenish those used 15K grains, you now have a max capacity of 20K again. Now, it stands to reason that not 100% of the media will take on sodium, and therefore the next time, you may not have exactly 20K of capacity... but for all practical purposes, your water will be soft, and the little hardness that snuck by will go undetected. (Unless you are testing with something more precise than the Hach 5B)

    At least, that's how I understand it. Feel free to shoot down my theory, oh ye gods of sodium-enhanced water!
    Fairly accurate. In the same way that non variable reserve is like adding 20 gallons to a tank, regardless of how much overflows and is wasted on the ground. The only real difference is that due to some algorythyms and efficiency anomlies, a variable brining system works best in an upflow application, (lets not get into that old discussion), and the efficiency gains are minimal unless your system is completely undersized or improperly applied.

    The gas analogy would be easier to understand in softening terms if gas only cost 5 cents a gallon, and you only filled your tank once a week, the savings of a few gallons is good, but is it worth it?

    The best application for a variable reserve softener is commercial or extremely high hardness residential where a 2 cubic foot single tank system is going to be regenerating less than every 4 days, but then again, a twin alternator should be used at that point anyways.

  11. #41
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    Does the fullness of your gas tank depend on the amount of gas it is soaked in before draining out the all the gas you will use to operate your car? Pretty sure the gas tank analogy is not valid . . .
    What? You soak your gas tank in gasoline before draining out what you want to use to operate your car! Did you take out of it (the gas tank) the amount of gas you soak it (the gas tank) in? Was the tank full when you took the gas used to soak the tank in out of it? Or, did you use gas from another container? If so, do you mean you don't have a pickup or SUV?

    What do you drain the gas into that you want to use to operate the car? What color is the car? watersolutions kinetico salesman Andy would probably want to know the color. Do you realize that your car's fuel mileage is controlled by your right foot; unless you have to have a hand operated throttle control?

    Sorry, other than that, I'm pretty sure your question can only be interpreted by cartoonyguy Tommy. But then Lligfta or whatever might be able to surmise what you meant to say. Or was it F6Hawk? I think he's the one that surmises. LOL maybe water solutions Kinetico salesman Andy speaks your language. He'd probably want to know the HP and if it is a 4, 6, 8 or 10 cylinder engine too. OH yeah, and if you've recently correctly inflated your tires, or not. Ah yes.... DittoheadAlan... he might launch into the geometry of the steering, of both front wheel and rear wheel drive vehicles and especially truck tractors, and their exhaust systems, and get into the history of all those systems to end up telling you that you'll be satisfied with whatever you chose to do.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #42
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    The gas tank analogy kind of works, LS... the tank's capacity is 20 gallons, you use 3/4 of it, or 15 gallons, and it will take 15 gallons to refill it. The last 5 were still there, if needed (kind of like a reserve), so they don't need to be replaced. (nvm if you have an innacurate gauge or other anamoly, we are talking capacity of the tank).

    For resin, if the capacity is 20K (1 cu ft @ 6 lbs salt), you use 3/4 of it, or 15,000 grains, and it will take enough salt to replenish the usage, with about 5,000 grains remaining in the resin which was not used. Provided you oversaturate with enough salt to replenish those used 15K grains, you now have a max capacity of 20K again.
    You don't oversaturate, you regenerate with the lbs of salt your volume of resin requires to regenerate the 15K.

    The salt brine in the salt tank is fully saturated brine and the valve mixing the slow rinse with the brine draw dilutes it to about 8-13% saturated going through the resin bed.

    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    Now, it stands to reason that not 100% of the media will take on sodium, and therefore the next time, you may not have exactly 20K of capacity... but for all practical purposes, your water will be soft, and the little hardness that snuck by will go undetected. (Unless you are testing with something more precise than the Hach 5B)
    That would only happen if you exceed the SFR of the volume of resin or, let the unit run low or out of salt or there was a mechanical problem preventing full brining, or there was iron etc. in the water that prevented it from being removed from some of the resin bead sites, and then that depends the amount of iron, H2S etc. in the water, if any.

    The Hach 5B test is very accurate and tests for gpg. A different test kit would be needed to measure hardness in ppm instead of gpm; which would also be very accurate. The accuracy depends on if you use/add any required buffers to the water to be tested.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #43
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    You don't oversaturate, you regenerate with the lbs of salt your volume of resin requires to regenerate the 15K.

    The salt brine in the salt tank is fully saturated brine and the valve mixing the slow rinse with the brine draw dilutes it to about 8-13% saturated going through the resin bed.
    But what we don't know is: Out of the billions of beads of resin, which ones are topped off with sodium each regen, and which ones shed sodium to take on the hard ions? The less salt used per regen, the less sodium per quantity of resin. You have said yourself that in order to get max capacity of the resin, dual regens at max salt are required; this tells me that not 100% of the resin took on sodium in the first regen, necessitating more brine to make sure ALL the resin is "topped off".

    Yes, the water is saturated with salt, making brine. If you introduced enough brine solution to perfectly saturate the resin, all would be great. But in practicality, that is impossible to calculate, so we add MORE brine than is necessary, OVERSATURATING the resin in the hopes of rinsing off those pesky hard ions and filling all those little "holes" with sodium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    That would only happen if you exceed the SFR of the volume of resin or, let the unit run low or out of salt or there was a mechanical problem preventing full brining, or there was iron etc. in the water that prevented it from being removed from some of the resin bead sites, and then that depends the amount of iron, H2S etc. in the water, if any.
    OR if we never filled 100% of the resin with sodium. And it stands to reason that as time goes on, the resin's ability to take on sodium is reduced, even without traces of iron or H2S. So the actual capacity of the softener does indeed decrease, even if we continue to add the same amount of brine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    The Hach 5B test is very accurate and tests for gpg. A different test kit would be needed to measure hardness in ppm instead of gpm; which would also be very accurate. The accuracy depends on if you use/add any required buffers to the water to be tested.
    I didn't say MORE ACCURATE, I said MORE PRECISE. Because obviously the 5b won't give us indications below 1gpg.

  14. #44
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    You can see high salt efficiency regeneration not working or working any which way you want to. You are sounding and acting like a very anal engineer...
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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