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Thread: variable bringing

  1. #16
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    No, Einstein, sorry no.... In a futile attempt to shorten what I was certain would turn into yet another derailed mess I posted a link to another thread here that might help explain the difference between variable brining and variable reserve and I am even man enough to admit that I didn't read all the posts there and maybe should have but either way his question is answered. And for the record HE DOES HAVE A FLECK 7000SXT LOL
    If you knew this stuff, or what you don't know, you wouldn't be attempting to link to a thread about the difference between variable brining and variable reserve while not answering the question of whether or not a 7000STX has variable BRINING.

    If you knew how to link or quote... I mean there are simple instructions, that might help too.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    So here is what I don't get about variable brining: the quantity of brine is set by the brine fill AFTER a regen. But you need the brine quantity for a regen to be set BEFORE the regen so that you don't waste salt be regenerating unused capacity.
    After a regeneration is called post refill. For either variable brining, also called proportional bring, or variable reserve, pre refill must be used. Then there is a pause while the water dissolves the salt. The amount o water added to the salt tank in the refill position is varied by a computer and is just enough to regenerate the USED capacity since the last regeneration. After brine refill, the regeneration starts.

    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    I had actually thought this would be useful for an oversize system (mine) so salt would not be used unnecesarily if the time between regens (day override) was set to a shorter time than that dictated by capacity and water use. I get about 3800 gallons of capacity out of my 30K grain (6 lbs/ft) 1.5 cu ft system. But it takes about 3 weeks to use that much water, and I have DO set to 24.

    Some say it is important to regen every 8 days for softener resin health. Personally, I am sceptical. I have city water and a GAC filter in front, so hard to believe the resin is getting very dirty between cycles.
    Without me getting into specifics that you probably wouldn't agree with anyway, IMO you should learn more about programming a softener. BTW, you can set the capacity and salt dose lower (than 6lbs/cuft) and increase salt efficiency and not harm the water efficiency all that much even if you didn't reduce number the minutes of the cycle positions of the regeneration.

    And IMO that carbon prefilter is probalby supposed to protect the resin from chlorine but, it will probably end up harming the resin due to decreased flow through it and you not regenerating the resin frequently enough but... there are a number of people here that like to disagree with most everything I say.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #18
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Without me getting into specifics that you probably wouldn't agree with anyway, IMO you should learn more about programming a softener. BTW, you can set the capacity and salt dose lower (than 6lbs/cuft) and increase salt efficiency and not harm the water efficiency all that much even if you didn't reduce number the minutes of the cycle positions of the regeneration.
    No big trick to program a softener once you understand what all the cryptic abreviations are for. I chose 6 lbs/ft based on information that less salt would reduce water quality, not just capacity. I know that using 4 lbs/ft would reduce capacity and time between regens, but I don't want to reduce water quality as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    And IMO that carbon prefilter is probalby supposed to protect the resin from chlorine but, it will probably end up harming the resin due to decreased flow through it and you not regenerating the resin frequently enough but... there are a number of people here that like to disagree with most everything I say.
    The carbon filter is a 1.5 cu ft 12" X 54" Fleck 7000SXT tank that flows far more than the 2.5 GPM backwash requirement of the softener. Did you assume it was something else? From the water meter, through the water treatment, all the way to my NRC1111DVNG tankless heater, I made sure my new plumbing would not lack flow capacity.

  4. #19
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    So here is what I don't get about variable brining: the quantity of brine is set by the brine fill AFTER a regen. But you need the brine quantity for a regen to be set BEFORE the regen so that you don't waste salt be regenerating unused capacity.

    Or maybe that is the difference - variable brining does a brine fill before the regen, using the amount of salt required to regenerate to full capacity, without regenerating unused capacity.

    I had actually thought this would be useful for an oversize system (mine) so salt would not be used unnecesarily if the time between regens (day override) was set to a shorter time than that dictated by capacity and water use. I get about 3800 gallons of capacity out of my 30K grain (6 lbs/ft) 1.5 cu ft system. But it takes about 3 weeks to use that much water, and I have DO set to 24.

    Some say it is important to regen every 8 days for softener resin health. Personally, I am sceptical. I have city water and a GAC filter in front, so hard to believe the resin is getting very dirty between cycles.
    You are correct. If your system is being used for iron removal, higher salt and moe frequent regenerations should be done, otherwise, for the mojority of applications, regeneration once a month is not a problem. Consider the exchange tank business, most of those go for a month, many are on bi-monthly schedules, the resin in these systems lasts for many years. If you have a lot of dirt, etc, regeneration frequency should also be increased. Your carbon tank will not affect your softener in a negative way, not really sure what the comment from the harrasser was supposed to mean. Your carbon tank will probably peak around 15-20 GPM, I dont see any problems there.

  5. #20
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    No big trick to program a softener once you understand what all the cryptic abreviations are for. I chose 6 lbs/ft based on information that less salt would reduce water quality, not just capacity. I know that using 4 lbs/ft would reduce capacity and time between regens, but I don't want to reduce water quality as well.



    The carbon filter is a 1.5 cu ft 12" X 54" Fleck 7000SXT tank that flows far more than the 2.5 GPM backwash requirement of the softener. Did you assume it was something else? From the water meter, through the water treatment, all the way to my NRC1111DVNG tankless heater, I made sure my new plumbing would not lack flow capacity.
    Ohhhhhhh, SNAP!! Smacked down by a DIYer who has his ducks in a row....

  6. #21
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    He apparently "doesn't know what he doesn't know" LOL
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  7. #22
    Residential Design and Consultant knowhow's Avatar
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    lifespeed,

    In reference to softener resin health, I would guess that backwashing on a more regular basis (like 8-10 days versus 3 weeks) would better maintain the resin bed because backwashing redistributes the resin in the bed (fluffs it up) which will assist in preventing "channeling".

    Here is a link to an article on brine efficiency and variable brining:
    http://www.watertreatmentguide.com/a..._softening.htm



    I copied and pasted information on backwashing from a portion of a technical paper I got from this link :
    http://www.steamgenerationsystems.co...eatment_3.html

    It references zeolite resin but I would assume the same is true for the resin you are using.

    Here it is :

    Backwash. During the exhaustion or service cycles, the downward flow of raw water caused suspended matter to accumulate on the resin bed. The resin is an excellent filter medium. Backwashing is an upward flow of water which passes through the underdrain system, up through the resin bed, and out the service water distributor to waste. This reverse flow lifts and expands the resin bed by placing each bead in motion. In this manner, the bed is regraded while particulates and resin fines are removed.

    Regrading or classification of the zeolite resin brings smaller beads to the top of the unit; larger beads go to the bottom. This enhances proper brine distribution. Expansion releases material accumulated within the resin bed and fluffs the bed to allow for efficient brine-resin contact. Particulate matter and resin fines must be removed to prevent channeling, high pressure drop and poor kinetics.

    Backwashing should be carried out for a minimum of 10 minutes or until the backwash water effluent is clear. The backwash water flow rate should be sufficient to produce a minimum of 50% bed expansion, yet not excessive enough to cause loss of resin.

    The percent bed expansion resulting from a set flow rate is a function of the backwash water temperature. At a given flow rate, the lower the temperature, the more the bed is expanded. Due to increased viscosity of the water, adjustments in backwash water flow rates should be made as water temperatures vary seasonably. Backwash rates usually vary from 4 to 8 (ambient temperature) and 12 to 15 (hot service) gpm per square foot of tank area, but each manufacturer's recommendations should be carefully followed.

  8. #23
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I posted that link in a thread here about water and brine efficiency awhile back and the thread was closed by a past moderator that did not agree with the information in it which is pretty bizarre when you consider that the article was published by Pentair. Go figure.

    http://www.watertreatmentguide.com/a..._softening.htm
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  9. #24
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    No big trick to program a softener once you understand what all the cryptic abreviations are for. I chose 6 lbs/ft based on information that less salt would reduce water quality, not just capacity. I know that using 4 lbs/ft would reduce capacity and time between regens, but I don't want to reduce water quality as well.
    How does a less than 6lbs/cuft salt dose reduce water quality? At the end of a regeneration all the used resin is fully regenerated the same as it is with 6 lbs or more.

    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    The carbon filter is a 1.5 cu ft 12" X 54" Fleck 7000SXT tank that flows far more than the 2.5 GPM backwash requirement of the softener. Did you assume it was something else? From the water meter, through the water treatment, all the way to my NRC1111DVNG tankless heater, I made sure my new plumbing would not lack flow capacity.
    Yes I assumed a disposable cartridge filter, not a backwashed carbon filter.

    You don't have over sized plumbing, nor do you have over sized water treatment equipment. But you are going too long between regenerations.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #25
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    You are correct. If your system is being used for iron removal, higher salt and moe frequent regenerations should be done, otherwise, for the mojority of applications, regeneration once a month is not a problem.

    Consider the exchange tank business, most of those go for a month, many are on bi-monthly schedules, the resin in these systems lasts for many years.
    In my 20 years as a local dealer, I had two Culligan dealerships in my service area and I sold a lot of softeners to their dissatisfied monthly exchange tank type customers. I also sold a lot of softeners to their rental softener customers but....

    In over 25 years I've never heard from anyone with a longer than once a month exchange tank type softener but I would think most of them might be dissatisfied also.

    A nationally recognized Culligan sales women, with 20+/- years with the one dealership told me that the attrition rate of the exchange tank resin was quite high, something like 20%/year if I recall correctly, and it was due to how the resin was regenerated. The dealership she worked for was only 1.5 miles from my place and it was in the same location since it was started in 1962.

    Strange that you mention exchange tanks when both those very old dealerships started getting rid of their residential (if not commercial too) exchange tank service in the early to mid 1990s.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #26
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    I posted that link in a thread here about water and brine efficiency awhile back and the thread was closed by a past moderator that did not agree with the information in it which is pretty bizarre when you consider that the article was published by Pentair. Go figure.
    You can be sure the thread wasn't closed because of you or anyone else posting that link.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #27
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Indeed, I am more than sure that the link was not the issue LOL.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  13. #28
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    I know someone who said something that agrees with me so you are wrong. Huh???

    In regards to portable exchenge tank systems, I design them. Batch regeneration methods, in tank regen, mini, standard, and trucked transfers, I design those systems. I think my knowledge would be a little more than a salesperson for Culligan. Your strange need to argue is difficult to understand. The long time between regenerations that is common in many portable exchange tank systems is primarily commercial low water use applications. Steam boilers, heating hot water water systems, etc. Many facilities will store a bank of extra tanks, either softener or DI for months at a time before they will go into service, and when they do go into service, they can stay online for many months, no problem. Now for your 20% attrition rate... 5 years for resin is not that bad, especially if you understand the batch regeenration processes, which you do not.

    Resin should be regenerated regularly, yes. Regenerating it infrequently in a residential application with decent quality feed water will not have a detrimental affect to the resins life or softening ability. If you read the manufacturers recommendations for RO pre-filters, 6 months is the normal changeout for the pre-filter, this is a generic statement, common sense would also indicate that water conditions and applications vary, so annual filter changeouts are more common on cleaner water supplies. Same goes for water softening resin or any other water treatment media or methedology. Technically speaking, his 1.5 cu. ft GAC has a service flow rating of 4.5 GPM, which is technically, according to the manufacturer, undersized.

    lastly, < 6 pounds will produce a slightly harder water, this is not a debatable issue, it is simply an ability to do math and understand charts. Do you even own a hardness ppm test kit? I will assume no, so you would not understand the testing protocols for determining this. Regardless, most people, not all, are happy with the quality of the water that regenerating a softenr with 4 pounds per cu. ft. will provide.

    Déjà vu, I have already said this before, and we do not necessarily disagree, you are just determined to argue.

  14. #29
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    I know someone who said something that agrees with me so you are wrong. Huh???
    It's a bit more than that and you should know it. I see below you are talking about exchange with boilers etc. etc.. Here we usually talk about residential water quality to novice homeowners. And you keep throwing out all sorts of info that doesn't apply to them and then say I argue with you... that's convenient for you but incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    In regards to portable exchenge tank systems, I design them. Batch regeneration methods, in tank regen, mini, standard, and trucked transfers, I design those systems. I think my knowledge would be a little more than a salesperson for Culligan.
    So you design them, I don't see any mention of residential use in all that bloated ego stuff Alan but, how does any of that help the OP in this thread and any other homeowners that will read this in the future?

    The Culligan lady and I back then and I now in this thread, were talking about residential exchange tanks, not commercial applications.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Your strange need to argue is difficult to understand. The long time between regenerations that is common in many portable exchange tank systems is primarily commercial low water use applications. Steam boilers, heating hot water water systems, etc. Many facilities will store a bank of extra tanks, either softener or DI for months at a time before they will go into service, and when they do go into service, they can stay online for many months, no problem. Now for your 20% attrition rate... 5 years for resin is not that bad, especially if you understand the batch regeenration processes, which you do not.
    A... we were talking about a residential softener sitting around for weeks or a month or longer between regenerations until you went off into commercial exchange tanks sitting around for months to back up your claim of it not being a problem in residential softeners.

    IMO not many homeowners are going to care about how long commercial exchange tanks sit around but...

    Trust me, those same homeowners will want their resin to last well past 5 years.

    And the batch regeneration was one of the things that caused those Culligan dealers to stop their exchange tank programs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Resin should be regenerated regularly, yes. Regenerating it infrequently in a residential application with decent quality feed water will not have a detrimental affect to the resins life or softening ability.
    That is what I said and you disagreed but then I didn't put conditions on it because neither you or I know anything about the "quality" of the feed water but, I know all waters have a varying amount of invisible dirt in them and I respond accordingly while you respond as if there is no dirt in all waters. Do you think there are any well owner OPs reading this, I do, and if so, what would you tell them?

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    If you read the manufacturers recommendations for RO pre-filters, 6 months is the normal changeout for the pre-filter, this is a generic statement, common sense would also indicate that water conditions and applications vary, so annual filter changeouts are more common on cleaner water supplies.
    They, the resin manufacturers, also say for residential softeners that on average weekly regeneration is best but, again, off you go into RO prefilters when I and especially the OP, are talking about his residential softener and how long he should go between regenerations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Same goes for water softening resin or any other water treatment media or methedology. Technically speaking, his 1.5 cu. ft GAC has a service flow rating of 4.5 GPM, which is technically, according to the manufacturer, undersized.
    And had I mentioned his filter being undersized, you or someone else would have disagreed, but please explain to Lifespeed why that is not a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    lastly, < 6 pounds will produce a slightly harder water, this is not a debatable issue, it is simply an ability to do math and understand charts. Do you even own a hardness ppm test kit? I will assume no, so you would not understand the testing protocols for determining this. Regardless, most people, not all, are happy with the quality of the water that regenerating a softenr with 4 pounds per cu. ft. will provide.
    Slightly harder water on a ppm basis but not with the 5B test kit you suggest all homeowners use because it does not measure ppm, only gpg. Am I right or arguing with you?

    Also, "most people" can feel a grain or two of hardness getting through their softener but, you go on about the FEEL of the water not being a good enough "test"... so how is it that those people in your "not all people" are going to know they have a few ppm of hardness in their softened water if they don't FEEL it?

    Do you have a test kit suggestion for them so they can test their water for ppm of hardness daily? Do you really believe a homeowner is going to do that because they are that anal?

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Déjà vu, I have already said this before, and we do not necessarily disagree, you are just determined to argue.
    LOL Actually I'm determined to keep you on topic and root out all your extraneous, long winded, ego driven BS that has nothing to do with the residential OPs' questions or problems.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  15. #30
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    I think I understand the problem, you are unable to read a post as a whole, you have to break every post into individual sentences, not quite understanding that the post is meant to be read as a whole. Now I understand... it makes a lot more sense.

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