Tom Sawyer
In the Trades
He apparently "doesn't know what he doesn't know" LOL
How does a less than 6lbs/cuft salt dose reduce water quality? At the end of a regeneration all the used resin is fully regenerated the same as it is with 6 lbs or more.No big trick to program a softener once you understand what all the cryptic abreviations are for. I chose 6 lbs/ft based on information that less salt would reduce water quality, not just capacity. I know that using 4 lbs/ft would reduce capacity and time between regens, but I don't want to reduce water quality as well.
Yes I assumed a disposable cartridge filter, not a backwashed carbon filter.The carbon filter is a 1.5 cu ft 12" X 54" Fleck 7000SXT tank that flows far more than the 2.5 GPM backwash requirement of the softener. Did you assume it was something else? From the water meter, through the water treatment, all the way to my NRC1111DVNG tankless heater, I made sure my new plumbing would not lack flow capacity.
In my 20 years as a local dealer, I had two Culligan dealerships in my service area and I sold a lot of softeners to their dissatisfied monthly exchange tank type customers. I also sold a lot of softeners to their rental softener customers but....You are correct. If your system is being used for iron removal, higher salt and moe frequent regenerations should be done, otherwise, for the mojority of applications, regeneration once a month is not a problem.
Consider the exchange tank business, most of those go for a month, many are on bi-monthly schedules, the resin in these systems lasts for many years.
You can be sure the thread wasn't closed because of you or anyone else posting that link.I posted that link in a thread here about water and brine efficiency awhile back and the thread was closed by a past moderator that did not agree with the information in it which is pretty bizarre when you consider that the article was published by Pentair. Go figure.
It's a bit more than that and you should know it. I see below you are talking about exchange with boilers etc. etc.. Here we usually talk about residential water quality to novice homeowners. And you keep throwing out all sorts of info that doesn't apply to them and then say I argue with you... that's convenient for you but incorrect.I know someone who said something that agrees with me so you are wrong. Huh???
So you design them, I don't see any mention of residential use in all that bloated ego stuff Alan but, how does any of that help the OP in this thread and any other homeowners that will read this in the future?In regards to portable exchenge tank systems, I design them. Batch regeneration methods, in tank regen, mini, standard, and trucked transfers, I design those systems. I think my knowledge would be a little more than a salesperson for Culligan.
A... we were talking about a residential softener sitting around for weeks or a month or longer between regenerations until you went off into commercial exchange tanks sitting around for months to back up your claim of it not being a problem in residential softeners.Your strange need to argue is difficult to understand. The long time between regenerations that is common in many portable exchange tank systems is primarily commercial low water use applications. Steam boilers, heating hot water water systems, etc. Many facilities will store a bank of extra tanks, either softener or DI for months at a time before they will go into service, and when they do go into service, they can stay online for many months, no problem. Now for your 20% attrition rate... 5 years for resin is not that bad, especially if you understand the batch regeenration processes, which you do not.
That is what I said and you disagreed but then I didn't put conditions on it because neither you or I know anything about the "quality" of the feed water but, I know all waters have a varying amount of invisible dirt in them and I respond accordingly while you respond as if there is no dirt in all waters. Do you think there are any well owner OPs reading this, I do, and if so, what would you tell them?Resin should be regenerated regularly, yes. Regenerating it infrequently in a residential application with decent quality feed water will not have a detrimental affect to the resins life or softening ability.
They, the resin manufacturers, also say for residential softeners that on average weekly regeneration is best but, again, off you go into RO prefilters when I and especially the OP, are talking about his residential softener and how long he should go between regenerations.If you read the manufacturers recommendations for RO pre-filters, 6 months is the normal changeout for the pre-filter, this is a generic statement, common sense would also indicate that water conditions and applications vary, so annual filter changeouts are more common on cleaner water supplies.
And had I mentioned his filter being undersized, you or someone else would have disagreed, but please explain to Lifespeed why that is not a good thing.Same goes for water softening resin or any other water treatment media or methedology. Technically speaking, his 1.5 cu. ft GAC has a service flow rating of 4.5 GPM, which is technically, according to the manufacturer, undersized.
Slightly harder water on a ppm basis but not with the 5B test kit you suggest all homeowners use because it does not measure ppm, only gpg. Am I right or arguing with you?lastly, < 6 pounds will produce a slightly harder water, this is not a debatable issue, it is simply an ability to do math and understand charts. Do you even own a hardness ppm test kit? I will assume no, so you would not understand the testing protocols for determining this. Regardless, most people, not all, are happy with the quality of the water that regenerating a softenr with 4 pounds per cu. ft. will provide.
LOL Actually I'm determined to keep you on topic and root out all your extraneous, long winded, ego driven BS that has nothing to do with the residential OPs' questions or problems.Déjà vu, I have already said this before, and we do not necessarily disagree, you are just determined to argue.
How does a less than 6lbs/cuft salt dose reduce water quality? At the end of a regeneration all the used resin is fully regenerated the same as it is with 6 lbs or more.
We are talking about hardness in the softened water, and dittohead is bringing in ppm of hardness instead of talking gpg of hardness that is used in residential softening but..Perhaps lifespeed realizes that lower brine amounts leaves more hardness in the resin. And then, when soft water makes its way down thru the resin, some of the sodium departs said soft water, and regenerates the resin below that wasn't regenerated due to less salt being used, and therefore, some "hardness leakage" may occur.
Now, since water is still considered soft from 0-3 gpg, it will probably not be a huge factor to most residential applications. But you asked HOW it affects water quality, not if the end user CARES if it does.
Is a softener at full 30K/ft capacity at the end of a regen, even if less salt than 15lbs/ft was used? eg: started at 30K capacity, used 20K, then regen with 6 lbs/ft to get back to 30K "full" capacity. Or is the capacity only 20K now? In other words, do you use capacity starting at full, or add capacity starting from empty?
Did you mean CT fdbr?
It would if you have the variable brining feature on your control valve but... I don't think your version of the 7000 has variable brining, does it? But then variable brining also uses a lot more water. IMO 3 weeks is way too long between regenerations.The reason for my inquiry about variable brining is I thought it might allow more-frequent regenerations for my 1.5 cu ft system without increasing overall salt useage, wasting salt/capacity. With moderate hardness of 7 grains, and low water use the capacity of 3857 gallons (not including additional 10% reserve) takes about three weeks to consume.
Yes that is how variable brining works, but 60 minutes is too short and should be at least 120 minutes so all the salt can dissolve into the refill water before it is used.So, my thinking is I will regen more often, even though I still have capacity left. But I'll use variable brining to implement brine fill first, wait 60 minutes (SV 60 in the programming?), and only use maybe 4.5 lbs per regen instead of the full 9 to regen 30K capacity of the system when it is used near capacity.
Well I went and looked it up.... If you have the SXT timer, your 7000 does not have variable brining, it has variable RESERVE.So far it seems to be going through the regen fine. I noticed when I first switched modes (VT dfff, CT fdPb) to variable brining it seemed to activate the brine fill briefly, and displayed "UD sync" while it did this. I programmed the valve to begin it's cycle in a few minutes, and it appeared to go through the BF cycle with minimal time. I assume this was a result of it resetting capacity to full, so its calculation thought it did not need to add brine at all. I added enough water to dissolve 22 lbs of salt to make sure this regen would put the softener at full capacity.
Using my old guy memory and then my calculator, I say 30K - 20K leaves 10K in the bed/tank and then regenerating the used 20K + the remaining 10K that was left in the tank, I get 30K, although I only had to use 6lbs/cuft (9 lbs) of salt to get the 20K per regeneration instead of 15lbs/cuft (22.5lbs). Now it is an old calculator I'm using...Is a softener at full 30K/ft capacity at the end of a regen, even if less salt than 15lbs/ft was used? eg: started at 30K capacity, used 20K, then regen with 6 lbs/ft to get back to 30K "full" capacity. Or is the capacity only 20K now? In other words, do you use capacity starting at full, or add capacity starting from empty?
Let's us say you have a 20 gallon fuel tank in a vehicle and a 1/4 tank of fuel on the gauge. You fill it with 3/4 of a tank and have a full tank, and it only cost you the price of 3/4 tank instead of the whole 20 gallons. Does that help?
The gas tank analogy kind of works, LS... the tank's capacity is 20 gallons, you use 3/4 of it, or 15 gallons, and it will take 15 gallons to refill it. The last 5 were still there, if needed (kind of like a reserve), so they don't need to be replaced. (nvm if you have an innacurate gauge or other anamoly, we are talking capacity of the tank).
For resin, if the capacity is 20K (1 cu ft @ 6 lbs salt), you use 3/4 of it, or 15,000 grains, and it will take enough salt to replenish the usage, with about 5,000 grains remaining in the resin which was not used. Provided you oversaturate with enough salt to replenish those used 15K grains, you now have a max capacity of 20K again. Now, it stands to reason that not 100% of the media will take on sodium, and therefore the next time, you may not have exactly 20K of capacity... but for all practical purposes, your water will be soft, and the little hardness that snuck by will go undetected. (Unless you are testing with something more precise than the Hach 5B)
At least, that's how I understand it. Feel free to shoot down my theory, oh ye gods of sodium-enhanced water!
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