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Thread: Spdt relay

  1. #16
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    If your timers / switches are SPST switches then they would need to be in Parallel with each other.

    You can turn it on from any place, but you can not turn it off , If another switch is closed.

    Your drawing shows that they must be SPST , unless I missed something.


    This may not be a safe DIY project, I would have added fuses, and a smoke detector.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  2. #17
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    I have debated closing this thread and am still considering doing so.

    Should something go wrong you are going to have a handful out of your insurance policy and they might not even pay off.

    This is one of the most dangerous installations I have ever witnessed. I say abandon the thoughts altogether before you lose your home and maybe someone’s life.

    Just what are you trying to prove? It sure is not your ability to make an installation of any kind.

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member jdanw's Avatar
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    Now why do you say that? IF my installation is the problem, then let's address that. If what i am trying to do is the problem, then let's address that. I have searched and found other people who would like to be able to control a damper on each line of an exhaust run and the inline fan. If it's my installation, what's the problem? If it's the components, what's the problem.

    I would say if it's the components, then by all means, close and delete, as I wouldn't want improper parts being used, but if it's my installation, then I say let's address that, so if anyone else is trying to accomplish this, leave it there for them.

    BTW, the picture I posted is obvoiusly a hack of two pictures, so it is kind of a diagram from actual picture. What DonL referred to as uninsulated wire, is just where I didn't color in where the end of the wire will be under a nut. If it's the uninsulated ground, I can redo it so I have full outer sheathing coming to the transformers. Other than that, what is the problem? Do you just want to see the whole board in a box, due to the fact that the wires are not in the romex? If so, can you explain why the little bit of exposed copper at the screw terminals is any different than that amount being exposed in a switch box? Just asking, because this really didn't seem to bad, I was kind of shocked by the doom and gloom, but I want to make sure that is not due to a mistake on my part of representing the installation properly. Anyway, thanks for sticking with me so far (if it lasts)...Daniel

  4. #19
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanw View Post
    Now why do you say that? IF my installation is the problem, then let's address that. If what i am trying to do is the problem, then let's address that. I have searched and found other people who would like to be able to control a damper on each line of an exhaust run and the inline fan. If it's my installation, what's the problem? If it's the components, what's the problem.

    I would say if it's the components, then by all means, close and delete, as I wouldn't want improper parts being used, but if it's my installation, then I say let's address that, so if anyone else is trying to accomplish this, leave it there for them.

    BTW, the picture I posted is obvoiusly a hack of two pictures, so it is kind of a diagram from actual picture. What DonL referred to as uninsulated wire, is just where I didn't color in where the end of the wire will be under a nut. If it's the uninsulated ground, I can redo it so I have full outer sheathing coming to the transformers. Other than that, what is the problem? Do you just want to see the whole board in a box, due to the fact that the wires are not in the romex? If so, can you explain why the little bit of exposed copper at the screw terminals is any different than that amount being exposed in a switch box? Just asking, because this really didn't seem to bad, I was kind of shocked by the doom and gloom, but I want to make sure that is not due to a mistake on my part of representing the installation properly. Anyway, thanks for sticking with me so far (if it lasts)...Daniel

    To be Honest JW does have a valid point.

    We would like to help, but sometimes people get into something that they should not.

    If you understand how electric works then you should know your connections.

    We just want you to be safer than sorry, that is all.

    Do not go away, Please keep us up with your progress.


    You do have a nice project, just don't get hurt doing it.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  5. #20
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    I started in the electrical field in 1968 and have been a licensed contractor for more than 35 years. I have passed the highest level electrical inspectors test that North Carolina offers and have been certified by the state to teach electrical inspectors for more than 12 years.

    As an electrical inspector I am telling you that I would condemn your home and have the meter removed until which time this mess was removed.

    As an electrical contractor I have refused to reply to this thread simply because of the method used in this installation. This is a foolish idea and let me tell you, you arenít the first to try something like this and just as everyone else before you it is not a good idea and it does not work. You are not the first person to come up with this type of idea and you will not be the last.

    If you want to accomplish the end result you are trying to achieve there is a proper method of doing so without endangering the lives of those who live in that house. Yes it is expensive to do so but it would be safe. Contact your local HVAC dealer for more information. If you are not concerned about your safety please think about your local firemen and donít put them in danger with something such as posted at the bottom of the first page of this thread.

    In my research of Kansas it seems as though your state has similar laws as NC governing electrical installations, or in other words an electrical installations must meet the adopted codes in your area. What this means is that should there be something go wrong that your homeowners insurance will come after you for any losses they might occur due to this dangerous installation that in no way meets any code.

    The sad part of the Do-It-Yourselfer is they donít see the dangers doing something like you have rigged up in your attic. They think that if it works it must be fine which is far from the truth. There is enough electrical energy in just one of those low voltage transformers to kill several people instantly at the same time and you not only have the transformer exposed but the entire installation is exposed and unprotected. One small rodent could send your entire home up in smoke just because you have some sort of flawed half-baked idea of ventilation.

    Most who want something installed like this are to remove odor not for the purpose of the fan in the first place. The fans are not installed for odors but are installed for moisture removal. They come up with some half-baked idea of timers and other such items for the wrong purpose thinking they have come up with a cure all that no other person has ever had before and they are going to become famous.

    Your local HVAC contractor can install a system that will give you a negative air pressure at any point of your home and it can be controlled by one local controller or by several controllers placed in different places. This type of installation will come as a listed unit that will be installed in a code compliant manner with no exposed conductors or components.

    Then there is the issue of grounding and I just canít see any grounding at all in your picture. You have the two green wires from the transformers (heat producers) wired together but to nothing else. Should there be a fault in the primary of either of these two items there is nowhere for that fault to go so it will sit there until flames comes and thenÖÖÖ..well I donít have a looking glass that tells the future but I know that the end will not be pretty. Look at the instructions that come with those transformers and I will bet that it says not for attic installations.

    Do yourself and your family a favor and take this mess out and stop trying to burn down your home. If you want to ventilate your bathrooms have the proper system installed and please stop this now.

  6. #21
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    I think if a person does not know what the printing on the side has, then they should not be playing with it.
    DonL
    Time to attend another wiring diagram and electrical circuit class.
    hj
    As long as it does not need to be inspected, It may work. But may not pass for various reasons.
    DonL
    This may not be a safe DIY project, I would have added fuses, and a smoke detector.
    DonL
    This is one of the most dangerous installations I have ever witnessed. I say abandon the thoughts altogether before you lose your home and maybe someone’s life.
    JWelectric
    We just want you to be safer than sorry, that is all.
    DonL
    There is enough electrical energy in just one of those low voltage transformers to kill several people instantly at the same time
    JWelectric
    Do yourself and your family a favor and take this mess out and stop trying to burn down your home. If you want to ventilate your bathrooms have the proper system installed and please stop this now.
    JWelectric
    I think the guys have voted, and it looks like it's time to find a different way to install this project.
    I suggest that you have your wife read this entire thread.
    Terry Love
    Last edited by Terry; 08-18-2012 at 11:00 AM.

  7. #22
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I think the guys have voted, and it looks like it's time to find a different way to install this project.
    I suggest that you have your wife read this entire thread.

    Terry Love

    I DARE you to let your wife and your insurance agent read this entire thread!!!!!

  8. #23
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Use a GOOD mechanical damper and control the fan with a simple winder time switch for about 20 bucks. No dangers to anyone.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 08-18-2012 at 02:24 PM.

  9. #24
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Thank you Terry

  10. #25
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I think the guys have voted, and it looks like it's time to find a different way to install this project.
    I suggest that you have your wife read this entire thread.
    Terry Love

    I think this is a IBTL, what do you think ?


    I would have at least built it into a box.

    Enough said...
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanw View Post
    Now why do you say that? IF my installation is the problem, then let's address that. If what i am trying to do is the problem, then let's address that. I have searched and found other people who would like to be able to control a damper on each line of an exhaust run and the inline fan. If it's my installation, what's the problem? If it's the components, what's the problem.

    I would say if it's the components, then by all means, close and delete, as I wouldn't want improper parts being used, but if it's my installation, then I say let's address that, so if anyone else is trying to accomplish this, leave it there for them.

    BTW, the picture I posted is obvoiusly a hack of two pictures, so it is kind of a diagram from actual picture. What DonL referred to as uninsulated wire, is just where I didn't color in where the end of the wire will be under a nut. If it's the uninsulated ground, I can redo it so I have full outer sheathing coming to the transformers. Other than that, what is the problem? Do you just want to see the whole board in a box, due to the fact that the wires are not in the romex? If so, can you explain why the little bit of exposed copper at the screw terminals is any different than that amount being exposed in a switch box? Just asking, because this really didn't seem to bad, I was kind of shocked by the doom and gloom, but I want to make sure that is not due to a mistake on my part of representing the installation properly. Anyway, thanks for sticking with me so far (if it lasts)...Daniel
    Daniel, it " didn't seem too bad" to you, because of your lack of knowledge on it. Trust JW on this.

    *Should you ever go to sell, and, something happens to the new owners, no matter how widely, you may argue this point, you very well may be held accountable. I saw this happen once with an outlet in a livingroom that shot flames up the wall.
    Last edited by Cookie; 08-19-2012 at 07:17 AM.

  12. #27
    DIY Junior Member jdanw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    ...I would have at least built it into a box. Enough said...
    Why would you post this if it is doomed. Everyone is hellbent on me stopping and it seems there is nothing right about this, so what is a box going to do for me??

  13. #28
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanw View Post
    Why would you post this if it is doomed. Everyone is hellbent on me stopping and it seems there is nothing right about this, so what is a box going to do for me??
    nothing.


    What you propose doing has been tried before and has always resulted in something bad.

    There are documented cases of such a rig causing the complete destruction of the home. Neither of the items are listed for use in the manner you are trying to use them. Those transformers are just like a light bulb and produces heat 24 hours a day 7 days a week and will result in a fire especially in that hot attic.

    Unless those relays are rated in horse power they will eventually fail due to the inrush current of the starting and stopping of the fan motor.

    I hope that you do understand, and by your remark of the many that this thread might help makes me think that you do understand, you are not the only person that has ever came up with this foolish idea.

    I understand that you think that the purpose of the fan is to remove odor but this is not true. The fan is installed to remove moisture due to the tub and shower. To remove the odor a simple air freshener will do the trick and will be a lot cheaper and a lot safer.

    If you are dead set on having something like this then have a whole house ventilation system installed. It will be a listed unit and should something go wrong you will have no problems with your insurance. If you rig something up like you have posted pictures of and something goes wrong you might be fighting with your insurance company to collect especially if it doesn’t get inspected. I can tell you with complete certainty that what is posted will not pass any type of inspection and might even cause your house to be condemned until it is removed.

  14. #29
    DIY Junior Member jdanw's Avatar
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    Well, now we are getting somewhere. It seems the omniscient jwelectric doesn't know it all. If he would look at the diagram, he would see that the transformers are only energized when the switch is thrown...no constant heat (I've been looking at boxes and fans as well, if someone would actually expand on DonL's comment on the box, as I asked earlier if that would help. I ask this mainly because of JW's comment about rodents. I don't know how it is more dangerous then the two transformers in my basement THAT ARE ON CONSTANLY for my thermostat). The transformers came with the dampers, so I'm pretty sure they are rated for their purpose.

    Honestly, at this point, I'd like JW to step aside, comment no more and anyone else who is left standing and wants to help, ask me some questions and let's see if this will work.

    BTW, this set-up is not for ODOR, but thanks again for thinking you know it all. I have two ducts going to two different bathrooms, properly reduced, Y'd, unsulated, etc. ** Man, I can't believe I am having to do this just to get back to square one (I have a very long post in the works, but it seems that with this one from JW, I feel better about not posting it, because I think he needs to step back) **. It is designed for moisture removal all the way out of the attic, not just into the attic like some hacks do, so PLEASE, don't think you know me. If I prove myself to be an idiot, then by all means say so. But like I said in an earlier post, I'm ignorant, which is not a bad thing, we come out of the womb that way. But I can learn and want to.

    I went to another forum to see if there was another place I might get some HELP and I read a thread that devolved into a grounding and bonding class, as one poster put it, without the "OH CRAP THAT STUFF IS DANGEROUS. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, CALL A PRO, CRAWL UNDER A ROCK AND PRAY FOR YOUR LIFE". Although the OP ended up calling a pro and the POCO, due to the original problem, but it was refreshing that the pros on the forum came back over and over and helped everyone involved with the thread and subsequent readers, such as myself gain a lot of knowledge about grounding. I wish that could happen here...

    With all that said, I do appreciate JW's concern and it does not go unheeded. I have disassembled things before (black pipe for gas heater in the garage come to mind), because I could not pull them off, butIi am not to that point and I AM considering the danger, so at least know that message got across, I just might not be doing it your way or in your time frame. I always say, if you want it done you way, let me spend you money...

  15. #30
    DIY Senior Member Chad Schloss's Avatar
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    I don't think you're going to find anyone on here to 'help' you butcher that contraption together. No one wants to see you or your family end up on the street homeless, denied insurance claims or killed by fire. It's unsafe. You obviously have no understanding of what anyone's concerns are here, including how electricity works, inrush current, etc. I would think that seeing as you want to continue with this, this thread will be soon closed to replies by the moderators and if I were you, I wouldn't even try to repost it here. (or elsewhere for that matter)

    Good luck in your project. I hope you will just buy something off the shelf that has been engineered to work as you desire.

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