(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 40 of 40

Thread: Autotrol 460i problem

  1. #31
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    166

    Default

    I have no links, but I can share with you my logic. As I thought earlier, and hence my asking you, your system may be on the small size for your conditions.

    For general sizing, calculations have to assume your Gallons Per Person Per Day, and that varies from 50-75 from all my reading. Your ACTUAL GPPPD can only be found by you if you have a meter somewhere in your system. I used 60 when doing my calculations; actual usage is ~44. But for the sake of getting your answer, let's assume 60 GPPPD.

    At 25gpg of hardness, plus 2.5 times 5 to compensate for iron, that's 25 + 12.5 = 37.5gpg For simplicity, let's round that up to 38. So we need to soften 38gpg X 60GPPPD X 4ppl = 9,120 grains per day on average. Plus, you want to have an extra day's worth of capacity to allow you to reach 2 a.m. the next morning (typical setting is to regen at 2 a.m.), so we need to "save" 9,120 for that. So for your 64K system, if you use 8 lbs of salt per cu ft per regen, you will have an actual practical capacity (with new resin) of about 48,000 grains. If you multiply the 9,120 above times 4 days, you will need to overcome 36,480 grains of hardness; but don't forget to add the reserve, so now it's 45,600. Since your softener can accommodate 48,000 grains, and you only need 45,600, you should be ok, but it's close. So you will be regenerating every 4 days, using 16 lbs of salt per regen, or about 1,460 lbs of salt per year. At $4.25 per bag, that's about $155 in salt.

    I hope this helps, and best of luck getting your system working again!

  2. #32
    DIY Junior Member rudyjr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    central ohio
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    I have no links, but I can share with you my logic. As I thought earlier, and hence my asking you, your system may be on the small size for your conditions.

    For general sizing, calculations have to assume your Gallons Per Person Per Day, and that varies from 50-75 from all my reading. Your ACTUAL GPPPD can only be found by you if you have a meter somewhere in your system. I used 60 when doing my calculations; actual usage is ~44. But for the sake of getting your answer, let's assume 60 GPPPD.

    At 25gpg of hardness, plus 2.5 times 5 to compensate for iron, that's 25 + 12.5 = 37.5gpg For simplicity, let's round that up to 38. So we need to soften 38gpg X 60GPPPD X 4ppl = 9,120 grains per day on average. Plus, you want to have an extra day's worth of capacity to allow you to reach 2 a.m. the next morning (typical setting is to regen at 2 a.m.), so we need to "save" 9,120 for that. So for your 64K system, if you use 8 lbs of salt per cu ft per regen, you will have an actual practical capacity (with new resin) of about 48,000 grains. If you multiply the 9,120 above times 4 days, you will need to overcome 36,480 grains of hardness; but don't forget to add the reserve, so now it's 45,600. Since your softener can accommodate 48,000 grains, and you only need 45,600, you should be ok, but it's close. So you will be regenerating every 4 days, using 16 lbs of salt per regen, or about 1,460 lbs of salt per year. At $4.25 per bag, that's about $155 in salt.

    I hope this helps, and best of luck getting your system working again!
    Hawk, Thanks for the help and talking me through the calculations that makes sense for me. At one time I had My wife two daughters and grand daughter here so I bet I was at least twice the gallons per day of most households! LOL I was really unclear on the capacity part of it but that makes sense as well. I understand how to set my capacity and hardness on this head using the jumper so that is no problem. The only thing I am unclear on is why the softener can only give you 48k grains if it is a 64k softener,can you explain that to an electrician in terms I can relate to, I am just curious??
    I changed out the resin earlier today and it looked like coffee grounds, I don't remember that when we put the thing together years ago. I do remember the old resin was Nelson and the new resin is Nelson and the new is a light amber color. The water feels fantastic. Thanks for the help, Jim
    Last edited by rudyjr; 06-09-2012 at 01:12 PM.

  3. #33
    DIY Junior Member rudyjr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    central ohio
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Tom, sorry you doubt the validity of this thread I am just trying to work my way through this problem. I really wish for everyone's sake you guys would take this somewhere other than here and resolve your issues. I do thank you and Gary for the help you have offered but please take it somewhere else. Thanks, Jim
    Last edited by rudyjr; 06-09-2012 at 01:15 PM.

  4. #34
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wherever I park the motorhome.
    Posts
    6,796

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rudyjr View Post
    At one time I had My wife two daughters and grand daughter here so I bet I was at least twice the gallons per day of most households!
    A metered control valve counts down the gallons from what they are at the end of a regeneration to 0 gals remaining and then waits until the scheduled time of regeneration and then regenerates and at then end puts the meter back to the number of gallons it will treat between regenerations. It does that regardless of how many residents or visitors are using the water or how much they use except IF the meter zeros and then enough water is used to use up the 24 hr reserve. If that happens then you get hard water.

    Quote Originally Posted by rudyjr View Post
    The only thing I am unclear on is why the softener can only give you 48k grains if it is a 64k softener,can you explain that to an electrician in terms I can relate to, I am just curious??
    Maybe Tom can help with that, he should be able to look it up and pretend he pulled it out of his first hand experience based memory. Well unless he's into the adult beverages as he usually is on the weekend. I see he's gotten all emotional again in a reply to me, so I'd wager he's been into the adult beverages.

    Although he did confuse programming data with what buttons to push on your control valve. lol Sorry, I think that's funny.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #35
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    166

    Default

    Jim, the way I understand it (and it's probably only the 90% solution), is that a softener has a MAX capacity of (we'll use yours) 64,000 grains. That's with brand new resin that can accept all the sodium in the salt. But that's using 15 lbs of salt per cu ft, very inefficient as to salt, and puts a lot of brine into the environment. I have also read that in order to keep the capacity up at 64K, one has to regen twice in a row in order to maximize the sodium uptake in the resin. I'll leave that explanation to the experts here, because I am not familiar with the science behind it.

    But in practical use, with reasonable salt usage (say 4-10 lbs per cu ft, and preferably lower if possible), your capacity is really less, as follows: 4 lbs of salt will give you 32K worth of softening capacity, 6 lbs is 40K, 8 is 48K, 10 is 54K.

    This doesn't get into the nitty gritty details, but might help you understand where I am coming from better than what I typed...
    http://www.aquatell.com/knowledge-ce...tener-capacity
    Last edited by F6Hawk; 06-10-2012 at 12:15 AM.

  6. #36
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,711
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    In electricians terms, consider a incandescant, vs, Flourescent, vs LED (not a good analogy, but it is the best I can do on short notice and no sleep for 2 days.

    Incandescent gives instant light, great color, no flicker and almost no complaints or problems (except for the short bulb life) To do this, it is very inefficient and uses a massive amount of electricity since so much energy is pure waste. (softener set to 15 punds per cubic foot)

    Flourescent, some flicker, so so color rendering, a little slow on the start, but much more efficient (softener set at 8 pounds per cubic foot). Considered efficient enough for almost any application, and it strikes a good balance of energy savings, light quality, total operational cost, etc.

    LED, harsh white light, bad color rendering, hates electronic controls and systems, but insanely efficient. (softener set at 4 pounds per cubic foot) Most people like LED, some do not and want the Flourescents back.

    In the simplest terms, running a softener with a lot of salt will make it very inneficient, 16 pounds will give you 30,000+ grain removal capacity. If you have 25 grains hard water, your system will be able to soften 1200 gallons

    Cut the salt in half, you will now get 24,000 grains removal, you will now get 960 gallons of softened water, as you can see, this is a massive efficiency gain, half the salt, 80% of the capacity.

    Cut the salt in half again, 4 pounds per cubic foot, you will now get 640 gallons of soft water, you now get over 50% of the original capacity for 1/4 the salt, simple math, huge gains in salt efficiency.

    Nothing is free though, to gain this massive amount of salt efficiency, you lose some water efficiency. Water is usually cheap and plentiful, and the amount a modern softener uses is minimal and its water efficiency is rarely an issue. Many softeners can be adjusted for better water efficiency, and when done carefully, their is little if any detrmiental affect to the system.

    You will also lose water quality at very low salt settings. Most people are happy with the water quality of a softener set at 4 pounds of salt, but some are not and a setting of 6-8 pounds will usually produce near perfect soft water that 99.9 of people are happy with.

    .

  7. #37
    DIY Junior Member rudyjr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    central ohio
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Thanks Hawk and Ditto. The reason I wanted the explanation is to verify what some have discussed, and I have kind of figured as well, my softener has been set up wrong since day one. The capacity on my softener and my next door neighbors, identical setup from same supplier were set at 64 for capacity. My neighbor came over and helped me get mine back together and back downstairs so we took at look at his settings as well. The settings that I am using right now based on all of your suggestions are Hardness 38 Capacity 48 and a salt setting around 8. These settings with new resin, new injector, new screen, (valve discs not installed but on hand if needed later) produced water that seemed perfect. Any other suggestions or does this seem like it is correct for my application? Thanks guys, Jim
    Last edited by rudyjr; 06-10-2012 at 10:14 AM.

  8. #38
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    166

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rudyjr View Post
    The settings that I am using right now based on all of your suggestions are Hardness 38 Capacity 48 and a salt setting around 8. Any other suggestions or does this seem like it is correct for my application? Thanks guys, Jim
    I suggest you have one of your favorite beverages, pat yourself on the back for a job well done and enjoy some soft water. Me, being anal and all, I would watch it for a few days. It should regenerate every 4-6 days (depends on whether you use 60 or 45 GPPPD).

  9. #39
    DIY Junior Member rudyjr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    central ohio
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    I suggest you have one of your favorite beverages, pat yourself on the back for a job well done and enjoy some soft water. Me, being anal and all, I would watch it for a few days. It should regenerate every 4-6 days (depends on whether you use 60 or 45 GPPPD).

    Thanks hawk I appreciate the quick response I think your suggestion for a beverage is spot on, got called in to work last night before I could enjoy one! Thanks again, Jim

  10. #40
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    166

    Default

    No worries, M8! And check your PMs...

Similar Threads

  1. 255 valve / 460i control
    By Tom Bond in forum Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and reviews
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-26-2011, 06:59 AM
  2. Iron still in water after troubleshooting GE/autotrol 255
    By rustywater in forum Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and reviews
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-13-2010, 06:10 PM
  3. Autotrol 255valve/460I valve
    By moisheh in forum Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and reviews
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-01-2010, 06:10 PM
  4. GE 460i advice
    By mnemonic76 in forum Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and reviews
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-14-2010, 08:49 AM
  5. Autotrol 255 Problem
    By jslear in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-27-2006, 07:28 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •