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Thread: New Project: Water Cannon

  1. #31
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ?ukas H?u?t?ler View Post
    Awesome man, thanks. So I'm thinking of getting a 58 gpm pump. As far as I've understood, this baby would have a head of 28,5 feet, ≈ 14,25 PSI. How come smaller pumps that do like 26 gpm can produce 135 feet of head ≈ 67 PSI? Because the tubes have a smaller diameter?
    Which should I go by to estimate the power, i.e. the length and solidity of the water beam, the gpm or the PSI?

    Thanks,

    L
    Bring along an air pressurized tank with water in it. Oh yeah, they have small ones called water canons/super soakers
    http://www.hasbro.com/nerf/en_US/sup...|e|11722310094
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  2. #32
    DIY Junior Member ?ukas H?u?t?ler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nukeman View Post
    You will need more tha 5 gpm unless you go smaller on the nozzle. The volume needs goes as the square of the diameter. For instance, if you took my original calc and used say a 9mm nozzle, the reduction in volume would be (9/18)^2 = 0.25, so about 36 gpm*.25 = 9 gpm (plus additional to cover air resistance).

    With a 7mm nozzle, the required volume is (7/18)^2 * 36 gpm = 5.444 gpm. Again, this is the minimum fllow required to get the distance.

    The design of most things (like this) takes some iteration. In this case, it is like this:

    1. pick a nozzle size (based on what is available or how wet you want to get them)
    2. calulate the volume
    3. calculate the pressure drop
    4. look at pump curves to see if there is a pump available (consider price, power requirements, etc) that can meet the volume minimum at that pressure drop (just looking at max flow or max head won't tell you what you need).
    5. repeat steps 1-4 by adjusting nozzle size until you find something that works.


    Volume is what will determine the distance with a given nozzle size. The pressure drop will be set by the design and the flow rate (friction in the line, losses at the nozzle, etc.). If I have some time later today, I will estimate the pressure drop. Do you know the diameter and length of hose from the pump to the cannon (also type of hose)?


    EDIT: Here is what I came up with. This is the pressure drop for different nozzles at what I calculate for the minimum flow rate. These values assume that the pump is located 2m below the cannon and do not include the losses due to the hose. They do include pressure drop due to elevation change, acceleration, and the losses at the nozzle and at the sharp elbow at the inlet to the cannon. If you keep a small nozzle (and lower flow), the pressure drop is mostly due to elevation. It seems like if you use the 3mm nozzle, you will have the easiest time finding a pump that will work (1+ gpm at say 2.5 m head, higher numbers will work better). If you go to a larger nozzle, the pump will need more flow as well as head.

    Nozzle Size (mm) min flow (gpm) min flow (lpm) dP (m)
    3 1.0 3.8 2.25045
    5 5.4 20.6 2.29762
    7 9.0 34.0 2.56335
    9 16.0 60.5 3.39408
    18 36.0 136.1 7.00267
    Wow, this is really great stuff man. So what is the dP exactly? Is the table based on the requirements to get the 4 m?
    Thanks,
    Last edited by ?ukas H?u?t?ler; 06-12-2012 at 05:59 AM.

  3. #33
    Nuclear Engineer nukeman's Avatar
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    Sorry about that. dP is differential pressure (or head) that the pump has to work against. The real head will be a bit more because I didn't include the hose from the pump to the cannon, but that resistance may be small depending on flow. For instance, if you used the 3mm nozzle with 1gpm or so, you could likely neglect the loss in the hose (assuming it is a reasonable diamter (say 18mm) and not very long). If you used the 18 mm nozzle and needed 36+ gpm, then you would need to include the resistance of the hose and may need to go to a larger diameter hose (such as 25 mm) to keep the resistance reasonable.


    It sounds like finding a 12v DC pump that would support the 5mm nozzle might be hard to find (or may usee too much power). I think that I would start with the 3mm nozzle and see how that works for you. I bet that you will find that a decent 12v pump with the nozzle will shoot well beyond 4m.

    Here is what you do for the pump selection:

    1. Based on the 3mm nozzle, we know that the pump needs to do at least 1gpm (~4 lpm) when working against a head of about 2.25m. So, we know that the max flow and head of the pump need to be higher than these values.

    2. Ideally, you would look up the pump curve for the selected pump and see what the pump can actually flow at that head. For instance, say you found a pump that had a max flow of 8 l/min and a max head of 4m. Although both of those number are larger than the numbers listed above, you really need to check the pump curve to know. In this case, the max flow (8 l/min) is with 0 head. At 4m head, the flow is 0. The pump curve tells you at say 2.5m head, what the pump flow will actually be. If it is greater than 4 l/min, it is okay.

    3. If you can't find a pump curve, you will still be okay if the max flow and max head are well above what you need. For instance, the pump that Smooky last posted (the one that he has) is 5gpm and 35 psi (roughly 65ft of head). Because both numbers are well above what you need (1gpm, 2.25m), we know that this pump would work without even looking at the pump curve. However, it is probably more powerful than you really need, but that isn't a problem except for cost.

  4. #34
    DIY Junior Member ?ukas H?u?t?ler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nukeman View Post
    Sorry about that. dP is differential pressure (or head) that the pump has to work against. The real head will be a bit more because I didn't include the hose from the pump to the cannon, but that resistance may be small depending on flow. For instance, if you used the 3mm nozzle with 1gpm or so, you could likely neglect the loss in the hose (assuming it is a reasonable diamter (say 18mm) and not very long). If you used the 18 mm nozzle and needed 36+ gpm, then you would need to include the resistance of the hose and may need to go to a larger diameter hose (such as 25 mm) to keep the resistance reasonable.


    It sounds like finding a 12v DC pump that would support the 5mm nozzle might be hard to find (or may usee too much power). I think that I would start with the 3mm nozzle and see how that works for you. I bet that you will find that a decent 12v pump with the nozzle will shoot well beyond 4m.

    Here is what you do for the pump selection:

    1. Based on the 3mm nozzle, we know that the pump needs to do at least 1gpm (~4 lpm) when working against a head of about 2.25m. So, we know that the max flow and head of the pump need to be higher than these values.

    2. Ideally, you would look up the pump curve for the selected pump and see what the pump can actually flow at that head. For instance, say you found a pump that had a max flow of 8 l/min and a max head of 4m. Although both of those number are larger than the numbers listed above, you really need to check the pump curve to know. In this case, the max flow (8 l/min) is with 0 head. At 4m head, the flow is 0. The pump curve tells you at say 2.5m head, what the pump flow will actually be. If it is greater than 4 l/min, it is okay.

    3. If you can't find a pump curve, you will still be okay if the max flow and max head are well above what you need. For instance, the pump that Smooky last posted (the one that he has) is 5gpm and 35 psi (roughly 65ft of head). Because both numbers are well above what you need (1gpm, 2.25m), we know that this pump would work without even looking at the pump curve. However, it is probably more powerful than you really need, but that isn't a problem except for cost.
    This is great info. I found this one: http://www.****.co.uk/itm/FLOJET-WAT...item4cf47691a0

    (The **** represents the e bay, forum won't let me post it)

    Specs:
    Connections: - for 13mm (") bore hose or Hep20 push-fit connectors CW193
    Dimensions: - 208mm long, 160mm wide, 100mm high
    Fuse Size: 10 amp
    Output: 12.5 litres/minute (2.8 gallons/minute) open flow
    PRESSURE SWITCH - cuts in at 1bar (15psi) - cuts out at 2.4bar (35psi)
    Efficient, high-flow, self-priming pump serving 3 or more outlets
    Multi-diaphragm design self primes to 1.5m vertical lift, can run dry without damage
    Supplied with snap-in ports for hose or Hep20 connectors
    Quiet running
    Motor protected by automatic thermal overload cut-out
    Built-in bypass valve eliminates the need for an accumulator tank

    By reasonable diameter, do you mean that less than 18 mm would be too little and create too much resistance or the opposite? Maybe it's good to have at least 18 mm so that the hose fills the barrel as quickly as possible?

    The description says "Multi-diaphragm design self primes to 1.5m vertical lift". Does this mean it's only got a head of 1,5m?

    Thanks,
    Last edited by ?ukas H?u?t?ler; 06-15-2012 at 05:10 AM.

  5. #35
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ?ukas H?u?t?ler View Post
    This is great info. I found this one: http://www.****.co.uk/itm/FLOJET-WAT...item4cf47691a0

    (The **** represents the e bay, forum won't let me post it)

    Specs:
    Connections: - for 13mm (") bore hose or Hep20 push-fit connectors CW193
    Dimensions: - 208mm long, 160mm wide, 100mm high
    Fuse Size: 10 amp
    Output: 12.5 litres/minute (2.8 gallons/minute) open flow
    PRESSURE SWITCH - cuts in at 1bar (15psi) - cuts out at 2.4bar (35psi)
    Efficient, high-flow, self-priming pump serving 3 or more outlets
    Multi-diaphragm design self primes to 1.5m vertical lift, can run dry without damage
    Supplied with snap-in ports for hose or Hep20 connectors
    Quiet running
    Motor protected by automatic thermal overload cut-out
    Built-in bypass valve eliminates the need for an accumulator tank

    By reasonable diameter, do you mean that less than 18 mm would be too little and create too much resistance or the opposite? Maybe it's good to have at least 18 mm so that the hose fills the barrel as quickly as possible?

    The description says "Multi-diaphragm design self primes to 1.5m vertical lift". Does this mean it's only got a head of 1,5m?

    Thanks,
    Lukas,
    Last item means that it will only pull water up on the suction intake side 1.5 meters for self priming, but the discharge lift should only be limited by the motor hp, which will be building up the pressure higher as the height of the water collumn it develops will weigh more and more the higher it needs to be pumped up to. Your sketch above does not seem to be of much concern here. Your concern is that the pump should be located less than 1.5 meters above the surface of the water supply or the pump will not be able to self prime itself.
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  6. #36
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Here is my stuffy cannon using off the shelf parts. It was pretty cheap to build. i will be doing a better video of it soon.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eksWyly74LQ

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