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Thread: Replace all Wiring that was Stolen any great suggestion???????????

  1. #31
    DIY Senior Member Chad Schloss's Avatar
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    "Holy crap! Ten receptacles in one living room?"

    this was a house from the 50's. it is a small ranch, and had i think 4 outlets. if you don't want power strips laying around on your floor, you add outlets where you want them. I also added a few more receps in places where people may not use them, but some would, like below a window in the foyer area. some people light up the windows at the holidays with lights/candleabras, etc, so i put one there, another near the end of the room to plug in a vacuum or floor cleaner, etc so you wouldn't have to move a piece of furniture to access a recep. i used 10 as a round figure, i actually think i have 7, with two being on ganged together for the tv area in the corner on one wall, and on the other wall another near those for more a/v equipment.

    at our house right now, i have a single gang outlet with one of those things you insert into the single gang outlet and you get 6 outlets out, and i still need another outlet. i hate power strips. i came home from vacation last time and i had one plugged into a lamp, just to make the cord reach, that's all that was plugged into it, and i came home to the power strip smelling like it was on fire. sure enough, i took it apart, the MOV's inside had melted and melted some of the plastic. I have a whole- home surge protector, so i think this one was just garbage. i refuse to use them anymore.

  2. #32
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Schloss View Post
    "If we look at the owner’s manuals of some of these appliances we will find that plugging them into a 20 amp circuits is beyond the recommendations of the manufacturer."

    the appliance does not care what is it plugged into, as long as the prongs fit.. as you stated, the OCP for the wire in the wall is the 20a breaker at the panel. as for the 18 ga cord, that is up to the appliance to be fused. 20a vs 15a, it's still going to blow that fuse in the radio/tv/whatever.
    Section 110.3(B) of the NEC states that any appliance of piece of equipment must be installed by the instructions so to install an appliance on a 20 ampere circuit when the manual states for it to be installed on a 15 amp circuit is a code violation.
    As far as the appliance itself one could use jumpers from the meter base and the appliance wouldn’t care as long as it had current flow. The overcurrent device is installed to protect the conductors not the appliance so it wouldn’t care if it was wired straight to the transformer. Believe it or not but that surge protector or plug strip with the radio/tv/whatever plugged into it don’t care either but the owner might when the insulation starts smoking. These devices are one of the leading causes of fire in our homes today so why put them to the test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Schloss View Post
    i guess i don't see your point. if 12 ga was 'incorrect' to use, it would not be able to be used for such a purpose, don't you think? our current house is wired the same way ( i didn't wire it, bought it like that in 2005, new build) and have had zero issues, except from where the 'rockers' got carried away with a rotozip and hit a wire i had to fix.
    It would only by a violation if there was something in one of the manuals for one of the appliances that called for a 15 amp circuit but common sense plays a role here also. When using things like extension cords and plug strips the fact that 18 gauge conductors are only good for 7 amps and 16 gauge conductors are only good for 10 amps why would someone want to plug one into a circuit that has 25% more heat energy available? Could it be that they believe that that 20 amp circuit is somehow better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Schloss View Post
    " i just rewired my rental house. i used 12 ga in most receps, and 14ga for all lighting, outlets separate from lighting. if you are wiring a living room with 10 receps, with your tv/stereo, table lights, etc and then run a something like a vacuum, it gives you what, 600 more watts to play with? yeah, i'll take that, rather than string another dedicated line for a living room circuit.
    What role does 10 receptacles play in this discussion? This is a dwelling unit not a commercial or industrial installation where the load is calculated on the device but is instead calculated on the square feet.
    In commercial and industrial installations all duplex receptacles are to be calculated at 180 volt amperes each. The reason for this is that one will not be installed unless it is planned on being used. In a dwelling unit we must install receptacles per 210.52 at regular intervals. These devices are sometimes never used so there is no need to figure them at 180 volt amperes each but instead at 3 volt amperes per square foot.

    All of this thinking of 20 ampere circuits for dwelling receptacles and separating the lights from the receptacles comes from commercial and industrial installations. The adage was passed from the commercial trade to the residential trade through commercial electricians that only did commercial and industrial installations then one day doing a dwelling and using what they had learned.


    A quick look at 210.21 through 210.23 one will learn that if a 15 amp receptacle is being installed then the maximum load that can be plugged into it is 12 amps and it doesn’t matter if it is a 15 or 20 overcurrent device.
    So what does one gain by installing 20 amp circuits and not installing 20 receptacles? Nothing. What does one gain by installing 20 amp circuits and 20 amp receptacles? The cost of the 20 amp receptacles are twice that of 15 amp receptacles. Their only gain is more cost and a waste of our natural resources.

    So is the 20 amp circuit for a dwelling unit better than a 15 amp circuit? It depends on who you talk with. Those that I talk with say no the 20 amp circuit is more dangerous than a 15 amp circuit. These are some of the greatest minds in the electrical trade not some master electrician that has retired nor is it some unfounded wives tale that was started many years ago. It is those who are charged with writing, testing, and researching the codes and installations for electrical energy.

  3. #33
    General Contractor Carpenter toolaholic's Avatar
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    Living in the real world, teens n Moms will be plugging "WHAT EVER IN WHERE EVER" Most teens don't don't have the NEC on the nite table !

  4. #34
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    It is not a matter of Mom or teens or even what they are plugging into a receptacle. The NEC is directed toward the installer and the code enforcement official that will be doing the inspection not for Moms and teens that will be plugging things in.

    The adage that more is better or a 20 amp circuit is better than a 15 amp circuit encompasses a lot more than Moms and teens. It even encompasses more than the NEC. It has more to do with the cords that Moms and teens are plugging in than anything else.

    One does not have to be a rocket scientist to know that in a fault situation it will take longer to open a 20 amp device than a 15 amp device. If this is a high impedance fault such as cracking in the cord insulation then it is possible that neither device will open but it is common sense that says the 15 amp device will open quicker than a 20 amp device.

    If we are going to play with the bigger is better aspect why not just install everything on a 30 amp circuit. Now we can watch TV, listen to the radio and vacuum the floors all at the same time without worrying about the breaker tripping. Mom and the teens could plug in whatever their hearts pleases.

    Edited to add:
    On a side note let me say that there is no violation in installing 20 ampere general purpose branch circuits but common sense will say those things that I have pointed out.
    It is not cost effective to install 20 amp general purpose circuits and the comments that it is better is not true but the opposite. There is no advantage in installing the 20 amp circuits but it does cause dangers to lurk.
    Last edited by jwelectric; 06-11-2012 at 09:33 AM.

  5. #35
    DIY Senior Member Homeownerinburb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post

    What role does 10 receptacles play in this discussion? This is a dwelling unit not a commercial or industrial installation where the load is calculated on the device but is instead calculated on the square feet.
    This is essentially my point regarding having more receptacles in a living room than is required by code, just to appreciate where one wants outlets and to avoid extension cords. Avoiding extension cords is a good idea. But in a residence one calculates load based on sq ft. If one is starting from scratch one can certainly put in an extra general lighting circuit to lessen the load on each of the general lighting circuits, but one should start knowing what the minimum requirement is before gilding the lilly.

    I wired my addition while the General handled all the rest. My master bedroom is about 15' x 14'. There are several doors, which break up the walls for figuring where the outlets need to be. But I have nearly twice as many outlets as would minimally be required. The bed could be placed against either of two walls. I could have used one outlet in either case, but the receptacle would have ended up behind the bed, which is a thing I avoid as best as I can. Customers pretty quickly see the value of not having the plugs buried behind the bed! There are two other outlets in the room that are only there because it is more convenient, and avoids extension cords.

    I don't charge myself much for my work......

    But I certainly did not need to wire them for 20 amps. There is a TV and some lights and a clock radio.

  6. #36
    General Contractor Carpenter toolaholic's Avatar
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    Well said !

  7. #37
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Just to let you know that like most things, there are differing schools of thought. I am pretty sure that the electrical code in Canada does NOT allow a 15 amp device on a 20 amp breaker. So they evaluated the whole situation and came down on the other side of the argument

  8. #38
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    As long as the wire is sized properly, I do not see the big deal.

    Most if not all appliances will have a fail-safe device built in.

    Even a power strip / surge protector will have a 15 amp or normally less protection device built in.


    The breaker in the panel will Rarely blow when a appliance fails, or a kid sticks a knife into the outlet or toaster.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  9. #39
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    I have yet to see an appliance that had overcurrent device installed in it such as TV radio ect......
    Have you got a wiring digram that shows this?

  10. #40
    DIY Senior Member Chad Schloss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    I have yet to see an appliance that had overcurrent device installed in it such as TV radio ect......
    Have you got a wiring digram that shows this?
    i used to work for sony, repairing electronics. there are fuses and sometimes even circuit breakers in most everything, from tv's to little cd players to your grandson's playstation.

  11. #41
    DIY Senior Member Chad Schloss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Section 110.3(B) of the NEC states that any appliance of piece of equipment must be installed by the instructions so to install an appliance on a 20 ampere circuit when the manual states for it to be installed on a 15 amp circuit is a code violation.
    As far as the appliance itself one could use jumpers from the meter base and the appliance wouldn’t care as long as it had current flow. The overcurrent device is installed to protect the conductors not the appliance so it wouldn’t care if it was wired straight to the transformer. Believe it or not but that surge protector or plug strip with the radio/tv/whatever plugged into it don’t care either but the owner might when the insulation starts smoking. These devices are one of the leading causes of fire in our homes today so why put them to the test?

    It would only by a violation if there was something in one of the manuals for one of the appliances that called for a 15 amp circuit but common sense plays a role here also. When using things like extension cords and plug strips the fact that 18 gauge conductors are only good for 7 amps and 16 gauge conductors are only good for 10 amps why would someone want to plug one into a circuit that has 25% more heat energy available? Could it be that they believe that that 20 amp circuit is somehow better?

    What role does 10 receptacles play in this discussion? This is a dwelling unit not a commercial or industrial installation where the load is calculated on the device but is instead calculated on the square feet.
    In commercial and industrial installations all duplex receptacles are to be calculated at 180 volt amperes each. The reason for this is that one will not be installed unless it is planned on being used. In a dwelling unit we must install receptacles per 210.52 at regular intervals. These devices are sometimes never used so there is no need to figure them at 180 volt amperes each but instead at 3 volt amperes per square foot.

    All of this thinking of 20 ampere circuits for dwelling receptacles and separating the lights from the receptacles comes from commercial and industrial installations. The adage was passed from the commercial trade to the residential trade through commercial electricians that only did commercial and industrial installations then one day doing a dwelling and using what they had learned.


    A quick look at 210.21 through 210.23 one will learn that if a 15 amp receptacle is being installed then the maximum load that can be plugged into it is 12 amps and it doesn’t matter if it is a 15 or 20 overcurrent device.
    So what does one gain by installing 20 amp circuits and not installing 20 receptacles? Nothing. What does one gain by installing 20 amp circuits and 20 amp receptacles? The cost of the 20 amp receptacles are twice that of 15 amp receptacles. Their only gain is more cost and a waste of our natural resources.

    So is the 20 amp circuit for a dwelling unit better than a 15 amp circuit? It depends on who you talk with. Those that I talk with say no the 20 amp circuit is more dangerous than a 15 amp circuit. These are some of the greatest minds in the electrical trade not some master electrician that has retired nor is it some unfounded wives tale that was started many years ago. It is those who are charged with writing, testing, and researching the codes and installations for electrical energy.

    i don't have the ability to recite code references, simply because i don't have a code book., and i am not an electrician by trade. i can read just as well as you. the wiring in the wall is protected by the 15 or 20a breaker in the panel. the appliance plugged into the outlet is fused internally. whatever you decide to plug into any outlet should have overcurrent protection. that OCP device should trip at 5a, 10a max, so even if the breaker were 15a on 14 ga wire, the breaker may never trip because the appliance OCP device will blow first. the breaker may never even open because of the curve designed into the breaker, which allows it to handle over the rated amount for a certain period of time before it trips. i still see no point from your comment other than it costs more. i wanted the lighting separate from the receps for convienence. i didn't do it for any other reason that that. i want the lights on if a breaker blows for a recep. seems like good practice, even if it is not code or over code to do so.

    take your car for example. it has an alternator to supply current for your car. it really needs to be only about a 300w alternator to power the lights and recharge the battery. instead, automakers are making them bigger, beef it up to 500w, sometimes 800w or more for people who install high current amps in their car with big speakers. all that current is there to be used, if needed, to run gps,interior dvd players, etc. everything in your car has a fuse, and every item you plug into the cigarette lighter should have a fuse also. how does the amount of current the alternator puts out have any effect on the device plugged into it, other than sustaining what items are to be powered?
    Last edited by Chad Schloss; 06-11-2012 at 06:09 PM.

  12. #42
    DIY Senior Member Chad Schloss's Avatar
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    "There is no advantage in installing the 20 amp circuits but it does cause dangers to lurk. "

    why then are we required to wire not one, but two small appliance branches for kitchen appliances at 20a each for appliances that require 15a? how about the requirement for bathrooms to have a separate 20a GFCI circuit dedicated to just the bathroom, for a 1500w hairdryer that can run on 15a?

  13. #43
    DIY Senior Member Chad Schloss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    I have yet to see an appliance that had overcurrent device installed in it such as TV radio ect......
    Have you got a wiring digram that shows this?

    here's one, just googled it.

    http://aanything.blogspot.com/2007/1...-75-cents.html

  14. #44
    DIY Senior Member Chad Schloss's Avatar
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    "A quick look at 210.21 through 210.23 one will learn that if a 15 amp receptacle is being installed then the maximum load that can be plugged into it is 12 amps and it doesn’t matter if it is a 15 or 20 overcurrent device. "

    why then are 15 a recepts rated at 20a feed through?

  15. #45
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Your tv set may have overcurrent protection. Your hair dryer, iron, toaster, fan, window air conditioner, any lamp, etc. DO NOT.

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