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Thread: 3 companies came to do tests, please advise on which softener

  1. #31
    DIY Member dwassner's Avatar
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    with a 24 hr reserve wouldnt that be considered not waiting until the softener runs out of capacity? We were goign to take it one step at a time and first see how the water tastes.

  2. #32
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Upflow brining is more effective and efficient but IMO, not worth the hassle or the added expense. IOW you don't need it. I agree with WaterSolutions about upsizing for better efficiency and reliability.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  3. #33
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwassner View Post
    thanks I saw them online and they appear to have great prices. But as far as my last question, does the 2510 only do downflow regeneration and if so is it a not so critical feature?
    Yes, upflow is not an option on a 2510 and I'm not sure but I don't think it's an option on the 7000 either and if it is it has to be special ordered because internal parts are different than the standard down flow. You don't want upflow/counter current regeneration anyway, for residential softening it is mostly sales hype and usually not done right.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwassner View Post
    at a frequency of 4 days regeneration instead of 8 with a softener that is 2.0 cu ft or 2.5, would I be using twice as much water since I regen twice as often?
    Yep, just about twice the water use, proving there is no "free lunch".

    Quote Originally Posted by dwassner View Post
    Thanks again guys this has been a really big help. If not for this site and the responses I would have a Kinetico K2060 hooked up in my basement and have spent alot more money. The time spent on here was well worth it.
    You are a very wise man.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #34
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwassner View Post
    with a 24 hr reserve wouldnt that be considered not waiting until the softener runs out of capacity? We were goign to take it one step at a time and first see how the water tastes.
    Yes it would, along with the additional capacity above your programmed K of capacity. Remember that the original new capacity was 30K per cuft of of new resin but, if you use any of that, you are not regenerating that resin with your salt dose for whatever K of capacity you are programmed for. I.E. a "32K" = useable 30K and you program for 20K (@6lbs/ft) including your say 3K of 24 hr reserve leaves that 30-20k= 10K still in the bed; unless you start using it by overrunning your SFR of 9 gpm. Then, with only 6 lbs of salt, you do not regenerate that part of the 10K or all of the 20K you need and you get hard water through the softener.

    The only cure for that is to do 2 manual regenerations at the max lbs per cuft of 15 lbs, with no water use during or between the 2 regenerations.

    Otherwise you'll have to forgive water solutions (Andy Christensen) because he's trying to pretend he is not a Kinetico salesman, that really doesn't know other equipment very well.

    For all I know as far as troubleshooting goes, he may not know Kinetico equipment very well either. But I can tell you that he is a true "Professional" salesman. He has the Kinetico company line hype down pat, and can in no time wrestle big bucks outta any uninformed consumer's bank account.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #35
    DIY Member dwassner's Avatar
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    I will do a gpm test tonight to see if I need more that 2.0 cu ft can do. If I do use a 2.0 cu ft, a 5600 is almost $150 less than a 2510, and the 7000 is about $100 less than the 2510. I don't want to be redundant here, but...

  6. #36
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    What reason do you have for going with a 2510? Not that it is a bad valve, quite the opposite but as you have found out the 5600 is less money and every bit as good a choice and my choice would be the 7000SXT and go with a 2.0 cu/ft unit.

    Just for clarification: Is there a forum rule here that prohibits Kinetico salesmen or servicemen from posting here? How about Culligan and Rain-soft? I know there are some here that for whatever reason don't particularly like those products but the truth is that they are quality pieces of equipment and while they are more expensive and proprietary I can't see where driving folks that could potentially help other folks away from this site is a good business decision.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  7. #37
    DIY Member dwassner's Avatar
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    If I was to use a birm filter in the future would I then reduce amount of grains i would need to treat accordingly or leave it? How is the Ironout used/applied?

  8. #38
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    http://www.superironout.com/faqs.php

    See the last question as to how to apply it.

  9. #39
    DIY Member dwassner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Fleck says to not use a 5600 on a larger than a 2.0 cuft softener (a 12" diameter tank)
    Why are there places online selling them with up to 3.0 cu ft resin beds? Is this a disaster waiting to happen?

  10. #40
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    5600 valves have a maximum backwash rating, that being said, the manufacturers recommendations are just that. From a technical standpoint, and as a OEM and distributor, we do not spec a 5600 with any more than a 12" tank for water softening resin. None of the major companies do either. I sell a lot of 14" tanks, resin, and valves unassembled. I also know from field experience that a 5600 with a 14x65 with 4 cu. ft of resin works fine. It is technically completely out of specification. Does this really matter? Probably not. Should it be done? Probably not.

  11. #41
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwassner View Post
    If I was to use a birm filter in the future would I then reduce amount of grains i would need to treat accordingly or leave it? How is the Ironout used/applied?
    You would readjust the grains to match the actual hardness, not the compensated hardness. As an industry, and for the environment, iron over even a grain or two should be eliminated prior to the softener. Water softeners do an excellent job of iron removal, but it is also a very inefficient way of doing it.

  12. #42
    DIY Member dwassner's Avatar
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    Well I suppose I should look into the birm filters unless there is a better more cost efficient solution. i was going to go with a 2.5 cu ft unit despite what some have told me, just for reassurance since I am confident we will be having more kids, and if anything changes with the well. If I plan on going with an iron remover I will have the extra capacity anyways.

    And just when I thought I was done doing hours of research...

  13. #43
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwassner View Post
    I will do a gpm test tonight to see if I need more that 2.0 cu ft can do. If I do use a 2.0 cu ft, a 5600 is almost $150 less than a 2510, and the 7000 is about $100 less than the 2510. I don't want to be redundant here, but...
    I think you mean you are going to do something to be able to find your peak demand flow rate gpm... there is no test you can do that will give you that info; unless with whatever fixtures running at the same time you can collect the water and add up the total gpm, that won't happen. Shower heads flow at 2.5 gpm up to 80 psi, toilets like 1.5, sinks like 2.2, tubs are usually wide open unless there is an anti-scald mixing valve. Washing machines (dish and clothes) 3-4 gpm (yes even a stingy front loader high efficiency washer still fills at that gpm). Count all those that you usually use at the same time and call the total your peak demand gpm.

    And unless you have the ability to break into the line from your well (before the pressure tank; at the well is best by lifting the submersible pump a few feet to get to the top of the drop pipe) and install a valve, pressure gauge and flow gpm meter, do not use someone's idea of how to measure the output of your well pump or use its gpm rating off a pump chart.

    My 20 years of experience with servicing the 5600 and the old brass 2500 or newer plastic 2510 (which I've never had to service), the 2510 should outlast the 5600. And probably the 7000. As we see from time to time in other threads, Dittohead mentions changes being done on the 7000, but not the other two valves. Plus it is serious overkill for your size softener requirement; but it is less money than a 2510, but it's more than a 5600.

    And if you are still thinking of adding a Birm filter later, then you should be buying it now and adding a softener later.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #44
    DIY Member dwassner's Avatar
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    how do I size a birm filter? where can I go to understand how they work, how long they last, etc... I didnt find much on this site or when I googled it.

  15. #45
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Birm filters are typically sized for flow more so than volume. "Volume" is adjusted by the backwash frequency. Since no chemicals, salts, etc, only water is used, the regeneration frequency is not environmentaly as high of a concern as softeners are as the "waste" is only water with precipitated iron.

    As to the comments that I have not said anything about changes to the 5600, and 2510, why? Is it really necessary to continue this? How many times can I say the 5600, 2510, and 7000 are all exceptional valves. The 7000 being the highest flowing, highest backwashing, and it has some other advantages that people who are not OEM's or direct distributors would not understand. The 5600 has been avolving for over 30 years, it has had many changes, all for the good. Little problems that arise, Fleck engineers look at it, and make an improvement to lessen the possibility of it happening in the future. The 2510 has never been changed? Really? I have already posted bulletins regarding the changes. Does it matter? Every Fleck valve is continually being changed, that is why the valves are one of the best in the world. Even the smallest problem (breaking collars 2510, piston seal and spacer tolerance issues, 2510, piston drive motor change from ac to dc drive, 2510, timer drive motor washer change, 2510, slip ring, 2510, etc...). How is changing a valve over the course of a decade, or three indicaitave of a product being bad. I think Ford, Toyota, Chevy, do the same thing with their products. In order to remain the best, continual imporvements are necessary.

    1 more time, the 7000SXT is Flecks premiere, high flow, highly programmable, control valve that has some unique advantages to the other valves. The 2510 was my favorite valve prior to the 7000 and still remains my #2 valve, until I get a year with the 5800 to see how it is going to work out. The 5600 is the old go to valve from Fleck, the original residential plastic valve that all other valves manufacturers are compared too, and the best selling valve ever.

    By using a 7000 valve, you will rarely need to worry about the possibility of having a flow limiting issue caused by the control valve should a large house use every faucet, toilet, shower etc, once a year at Christmas time when the house has 10 guests in it. It is also priced comparably to the other valves. Its only real disadvantage is that it is larger. The bypass is a full port 1-1/4", so the appearance is huge, but the odd claims of it being a foot or more longer off the back are based in fantasy land. Please see the picture below, it is a simple comparison of a 5600 and a 7000 with meters, and bypass, and plumbing connectors attached. The actual depth off the back is within an inch, the 7000 does protrude off the front more, but so what, that does not affect how close it can be installed to a wall. You can remove a few inches off of the 5600 and the 2510 by going to the electronic turbine meter, and approximately 1 more inch by using the S.S. meter. I am still trying to figure out the 12-14 inches. Name:  5600 and 7000 size.jpg
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    Hope this information is helpful, even though it has nothing to do with the original post.

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