Las Vegas Water Softener Selection

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John Vegas

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The piston must be perfect. Any scratches or imperfections will cause it to leak. Sounds like you found your problem. Damage to the piston usually occurs during installation. A small piece of solder, or a sliver of copper from the pipe etc can get into the piston area and cause damage. Like the piston in the engine of a car, they can last for 200,000 miles, but a little scratch is all it takes to cause a total failure.

Ok, thanks. I used push to connect fitting, so not likely solder or copper, but who knows, could have been some debris, that wore down over time. Would the piston be replaced under warranty as they seem to be more expensive than the seals? Also, how do I know which one to order as there seems to be two types (different flow rates?).

I can't seems to reduce the picture to a size small enough to post, but I'll have my friend help me tomorrow.

Thanks, JS
 

John Vegas

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Ok, thanks. I used push to connect fitting, so not likely solder or copper, but who knows, could have been some debris, that wore down over time. Would the piston be replaced under warranty as they seem to be more expensive than the seals? Also, how do I know which one to order as there seems to be two types (different flow rates?).

I can't seems to reduce the picture to a size small enough to post, but I'll have my friend help me tomorrow.

Thanks, JS

Here is the worn shaft of the piston, the green part of the piston was NOT worn at all. Also, should the new seals be lubed with some silicon?
7000SXT piston Reduced.jpg
.

JS
 
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John Vegas

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If the seals are black then they can be lubed. That piston should be replaced.

I reinstalled new seals and a new piston, and winner winner chicken dinner no leak. Thank you for the video, but I am still frustrated I had a failure after about 37 months. Oh well, I don't seem to have much luck with water softeners. I tried to do to two 15 lb regens last night, but I set the time from pm to am in error and the second regen never took place, and I have used some water since. So, tonight I will regen about 11 and then I have the regen set for 4 am so I will get up around 1 am and click the button to do a regen at the next cycle (I assume it will regen at 4 am--I hope), and then reset it tomorrow to an 8 lb dose and move on...thanks for your help guys.

JS
 
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ditttohead

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The double regen with no water use in between... don't bother. Just do a single regeneration with a little extra water in the brine tank and you will be just fine. Congrats on the fix.
 

John Vegas

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The double regen with no water use in between... don't bother. Just do a single regeneration with a little extra water in the brine tank and you will be just fine. Congrats on the fix.

I did the double regens last night. The resin should be in good shape. If I reset the setting, will it automatically perform a regen that night? I don't want it to, as it has been regen with 15 lb / cg three times now.

Thanks, JS
 

ditttohead

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If you look at the timer, the "faucet" should not be blinking. If it is the system is set to regenerate tonight. Push the regen button and release it and it will stop blinking.
 

Bannerman

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Assuming your Fleck 7000 is programmed for post regeneration brine refill, then the brine tank will have already refilled with the 15 lb/cuft amount last night. Even with now reducing the setting to an 8 lb/cuft salt dose, the increased amount of brine is already in the brine tank so the next upcoming cycle will also be completed at 15 lbs/cuft.

Since many resin manufacturers specify 18 lbs salt will restore 32K capacity in 1 cuft of resin, then a single 18 lb/cuft regeneration should be adequate to restore all capacity when the capacity has been entirely exhausted.
 

John Vegas

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Assuming your Fleck 7000 is programmed for post regeneration brine refill, then the brine tank will have already refilled with the 15 lb/cuft amount last night. Even with now reducing the setting to an 8 lb/cuft salt dose, the increased amount of brine is already in the brine tank so the next upcoming cycle will also be completed at 15 lbs/cuft.

Since many resin manufacturers specify 18 lbs salt will restore 32K capacity in 1 cuft of resin, then a single 18 lb/cuft regeneration should be adequate to restore all capacity when the capacity has been entirely exhausted.

I have a 2 CF ... So I a have been using a lot of salt! LOL. I'll just reset it to the 8 lb/ cf and if it regens AGAIN so be it. I was only at 4 lb/cf for about two years, and it never seemed to provide super soft water. I'll try 8 lb/cf, but I don't think I will really notice much because I regenerate based on days and not on usage except maybe once per year when I have a number of guests.

JS
 

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I was only at 4 lb/cf for about two years, and it never seemed to provide super soft water. I'll try 8 lb/cf, but I don't think I will really notice much
Each salt setting relates to the amount of capacity that will be restored. As such, the Capacity setting ('C') in the controller will need to be adjusted so as to regenerate when the appropriate amount of capacity has been consumed as related to the salt setting.

For your 2 cuft softener, an 8 lb/cuft (16 lbs total) salt setting will restore 48K of capacity so the 'C' setting should be programmed as '48'.
A 6 lb/cuft (12 lbs total) salt setting will restore 40K of capacity so the 'C' setting should be programmed as '40'.
Your prior 4 lb/cuft (8 lbs total) will restore a maximum of 30,400 grains before regeneration is required. What capacity did you have set?

It is usually recommended to not use less than a 6 lb/cuft setting as water softness quality can suffer.
 

John Vegas

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Each salt setting relates to the amount of capacity that will be restored. As such, the Capacity setting ('C') in the controller will need to be adjusted so as to regenerate when the appropriate amount of capacity has been consumed as related to the salt setting.

For your 2 cuft softener, an 8 lb/cuft (16 lbs total) salt setting will restore 48K of capacity so the 'C' setting should be programmed as '48'.
A 6 lb/cuft (12 lbs total) salt setting will restore 40K of capacity so the 'C' setting should be programmed as '40'.
Your prior 4 lb/cuft (8 lbs total) will restore a maximum of 30,400 grains before regeneration is required. What capacity did you have set?

It is usually recommended to not use less than a 6 lb/cuft setting as water softness quality can suffer.

Basically I way oversized my softener because I have a large three bath home that I was anticipating to sell, but I ended up staying with only one other person in the home. We use on average about 50 gallon per day for both in winter and about 75 in summer (we both usually shower at the gym and have all low use water appliances and don't do a lot of things in the kitchen). I tried to use the 4 LB / CF dosage (I set the C to 30, and I still regenerated based on days override rather than usage). I think I had days set to 10 to initiate a regen. I seemed to never use much salt (obviously). I would rather use a bit more salt (cheap) and have softer water. After the 15 lb / CF regens, the water is quite soft.
 
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John Vegas

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Basically I way oversized my softener because I have a large three bath home that I was anticipating to sell, but I ended up staying with only one other person in the home. We use on average about 50 gallon per day for both in winter and about 75 in summer (we both usually shower at the gym and have all low use water appliances and don't do a lot of things in the kitchen). I tried to use the 4 LB / CF dosage (I set the C to 30, and I still regenerated based on days override rather than usage). I think I had days set to 10 to initiate a regen. I seemed to never use much salt (obviously). I would rather use a bit more salt (cheap) and have softer water. After the 15 lb / CF regens, the water is quite soft.

Does anyone have any definitive research on how long is "too" long to regenerate a softener without risking damage to the resin? I am on chlorinated city water, so that might be an issue. Some postings indicate 7 is the maximum, others say up to 28 and I was hoping some new research might have been done to test resins...thanks. JS
 

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Does anyone have any definitive research on how long is "too" long to regenerate a softener without risking damage to the resin? I am on chlorinated city water, so that might be an issue. Some postings indicate 7 is the maximum, others say up to 28 and I was hoping some new research might have been done to test resins...thanks. JS
I doubt it, but maybe. It is clear the literature from makers like Purolite don't loudly prescribe a simple number. I did find this: http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0885/0901b80380885879.pdf gives "some general guidelines for designing a working mixed bed downstream of a demineralization plant" which says "Maximum service run length <4 weeks". I would suspect the time for single resin to be at least as long as for a mixed bed.

That document has some reading that you may find interesting. For example, on page 54 "Table 19. Recommended maximum free chlorine levels (ppm as CI 2)" talks about the effects of chlorine. It references this document that talks more about the effects of chlorine: http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/177-01754.pdf I think softeners use Strong acid cation resin.
 

ditttohead

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Mixed bed resins use the same softening resin that is used in softeners.

This is an old topic, and a tired debate. Too many people have opinions that wont change due to their "knowledge" or training from the 70's.

To keep it simple, consider the electro-mechanical metered softener, the best seller of all time, the 5600 Econominder. These were installed in every conceivable application, and are still popular several decades after their introduction. These do not have an override function, so it was not uncommon for these to regenerate every month or two in low water use applications. Commercial portable exchange tanks also are generally only regenerated once a month.

It really comes down to a point of efficiency and local water conditions.

Efficiency, the longer between regenerations, the more efficient the system potentially can be. Anything past 10-12 days really becomes mathematically insignificant as to the increase in efficiency.
Local water conditions, if you have potential resin foulants, then more frequent regnerations would be preferred. Iron, manganese etc can easily foul resin, regular cleaning with salt can mitigate this.

If you have a good clean water supply, then go no less than every month. If you have iron, then consider sizing the system to regenerate no less than weekly and possibly less efficiently (more salt).

Don't waste too much time worrying about what someone posted about the regeneration frequency, it is a non issue for the most part. Now when it comes to Boron reduction, nitrates, sulfates etc, these can be a little more important, but only slightly. Modern high end water softeners are very hearty pieces of equipment, no need to overthink it.
 

John Vegas

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I’m back...like a bad rash.

So the softener, literally less than a month out of warranty, has lost the ability to measure the flow. I checked the cable with a strong magnet, and that registered flow, so I assume it is NOT the sensor, cable, or the electronic board. It would have to be the turbine. Since I don’t like doing plumbing repairs in the evening, I plan on taking off the bypass and pulling out the turbine in the morning. Once I pull the turbine, my vendor said the two pieces come apart for cleaning, but I have not found any information on taking the turbine apart after I pull it out. Any thoughts on what could be wrong with the turbine that causes it not to register flow? It seems like a very simple part (hard to believe they are like $70, I might be better buying a new valve and canabalize it for parts!).

EDIT: I forgot to mention. Since this softener usually (well always except when I have a lot of house guests that shower a lot) regenerates based on a 14 day cycle and NOT based on metered use (I had a change in household since softener was purchased —its a large 64K system, I should probably reprogram), does it really matter if the flow is being measure because it will regenerate every 14 days anyway right?

EDIT 2: I did run the valve though all its cycles and everything seems fine. Is it possible that the valve locks it into bypass somehow so there is no flow through the turbine? It seems like the water is still soft so I don’t think that is the problem.

Thanks all. JS
 
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Reach4

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Any thoughts on what could be wrong with the turbine that causes it not to register flow? It seems like a very simple part (hard to believe they are like $70, I might be better buying a new valve and canabalize it for parts!).
Ideally there will be a particle stuck, keeping the blade from turning.
Since this softener usually (well always except when I have a lot of house guests that shower a lot) regenerates based on a 14 day cycle and NOT based on metered use (I had a change in household since softener was purchased —its a large 64K system, I should probably reprogram), does it really matter if the flow is being measure because it will regenerate every 14 days anyway right?
No, but with city water, you would normally put DO to 28 days. I forget if you are on city water.

EDIT 2: I did run the valve though all its cycles and everything seems fine. Is it possible that the valve locks it into bypass somehow so there is no flow through the turbine? It seems like the water is still soft so I don’t think that is the problem.
The metering worked for a long while, right?

Lets hope you find some particle stopping the spinning.
 

John Vegas

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So I depressurized the system, and removed the clips and the bypass. Rinsed off the turbine, and reinstalled and it worked!

However, a few questions.

1. When I depressurized the system, when you turn off of outlet side of the bypass, a bit of water leaks out of the that area (left looking at the front of the valve). This happened before when I turned that, but it doesn’t leak in operation. Is this because of the differential between the house pressure and the valve pressure (after depressurizing)? I’m thinking I might have a bad o-ring—does anyone know where you can buy one? (You can see some deposits on the red clip as it leaked there in the past when I was messing with the bypass for a previous repair).
2. I broke a red clip when trying to reinstall the bypass. I didn’t have the bypass pushed in enough. If everything is lined up, you really don’t need much pressure to seat the clip. Anyone know where you can buy just a handful of clips (like 3-4 so I have some extra). I don’t have any more extra at this point. I seem to break one everytime I need to do maintenance.

I’ll post pictures in another post from my phone. Ignore the dead Culligan in the back!

Thanks, JS
 
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Reach4

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From the 7000 SXT service manual:
NOTE: Installers are responsible for
securing the plastic H Clips
(p/n 40576 red clips) when
attaching connectors. The red
clips will break if you attempt
to force into position without
fully inserting the connector
into the body. If the connector
is inserted properly the red clip
insertion path will be clear.​


40951 ................ O-ring, -220

Searches for Fleck 40951 return hits.
 

John Vegas

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So I depressurized the system, and removed the clips and the bypass. Rinsed off the turbine, and reinstalled and it worked!

However, a few questions.

1. When I depressurized the system, when you turn off of outlet side of the bypass, a bit of water leaks out of the that area (left looking at the front of the valve). This happened before when I turned that, but it doesn’t leak in operation. Is this because of the differential between the house pressure and the valve pressure (after depressurizing)? I’m thinking I might have a bad o-ring—does anyone know where you can buy one? (You can see some deposits on the red clip as it leaked there in the past when I was messing with the bypass for a previous repair).
2. I broke a red clip when trying to reinstall the bypass. I didn’t have the bypass pushed in enough. If everything is lined up, you really don’t need much pressure to seat the clip. Anyone know where you can buy just a handful of clips (like 3-4 so I have some extra). I don’t have any more extra at this point. I seem to break one everytime I need to do maintenance.

I’ll post pictures in another post from my phone. Ignore the dead Culligan in the back!

Thanks, JS

Can anyone explain or better yet show me a picture of what I will find if I pull the red clip off the dials that put the softener into bypass? Is there an o-ring connected to the dial that you turn to operate the plastic bypass (I guess they are called the inlet and outlet valves)? I am afraid to pull mine out and end up with a permanent leak that I can’t fix.

Thanks, JS
 
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