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Thread: Las Vegas Water Softener Selection

  1. #46
    DIY Member John Vegas's Avatar
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    Not to beat this horse to death...but, can the following be used to connect a Fleck? This is what the Culligan uses, and I can perhaps just move around the existing a bit (or get my plumber friend to do it)...Thanks,

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  2. #47
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    No, those are specific to Culligan. I am not a fan of that design, I have seen way too many of that design fail in the field. i am sure anyone who has a few years of field service has seen that design fail as well. Modern designs use an o-ring, not a flat seal. The pressure of tightening it and any minor misalignment put excessive stress on the plastic nut which can fail in a few years.

    Any luck on finding the 1" Flex connectors with John Guest ends?

  3. #48
    DIY Member John Vegas's Avatar
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    No luck finding yet, have to make some calls tomorrow. I saw it on a Falcon cut sheet, so I know it is out there. I hope they are not TOO expensive, but likely cheaper than pizza and beer for my plumber friend

    JS


    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    No, those are specific to Culligan. I am not a fan of that design, I have seen way too many of that design fail in the field. i am sure anyone who has a few years of field service has seen that design fail as well. Modern designs use an o-ring, not a flat seal. The pressure of tightening it and any minor misalignment put excessive stress on the plastic nut which can fail in a few years.

    Any luck on finding the 1" Flex connectors with John Guest ends?

  4. #49
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    No luck finding yet, have to make some calls tomorrow. I saw it on a Falcon cut sheet, so I know it is out there. I hope they are not TOO expensive, but likely cheaper than pizza and beer for my plumber friend

    JS
    It is a newer part, I just got some in for testing a few months ago. Nice part, extremely high quality. Just be sure to use a pipe cutter on you copper, and I recommend using a green pad to clean the pipe prior to installing the John Guest end. Clean the pipe around the diameter, do not go up and down. They do not look cheap, but.. they are surprisingly affordable if my cost is any indicator. I am guessing they should be about double the cost of the 3/4" version. When you consider the cost of some copper pipe, a few fittings, etc, they are not that much different in cost.

    Send us a picture of the completed job, and good luck!

  5. #50
    DIY Member John Vegas's Avatar
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    Ok, I was able to get the supply lines and they are on their way...good.

    Now back to the softener. I could get a 2 CF model, with Fleck 7000SXT, but I am worried that is overkill. It is not much more to upgrade to the 2 CF from the 1.5 CF, but perhaps with only two people normally in the house, there would be too many days between regeneration. We use about 70-80 gallons per day total per the Culligan meter. I do like the option of a large system for guest and holidays, etc and of course for efficiency (can I run a lower salt dosage if I run a 2 CF system?).

    Thoughts?

    JS
    Last edited by John Vegas; 11-05-2012 at 05:06 PM.

  6. #51
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    Now back to the softener. I could get a 2 CF model, with Fleck 7000SXT, but I am worried that is overkill.
    What do you base that on? Or how would you know if it is too big or not?

    A 1.5 cuft can consistently treat up to 12 gpm and a 2.0 cuft up to 13 gpm.

    You program either size for the same K of capacity by adjusting the salt dose and that determines the gallons used between regenerations. The gallons per day determines how many days between regenerations.

    Guests simply use more water than the family does per day and the unit regenerates sooner. The guests leave and things go back to normal. Guests may cause a higher peak demand flow rate than the family does but you don't size a softener based on guests' water use, just the max the family will use. Anytime the max constant SFR of the volume of resin in the softener is exceeded, you get hard water through the softener and use capacity that is not regenerated with the normal lower than 15lbs/cuft salt dose.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    It is not much more to upgrade to the 2 CF from the 1.5 CF, but perhaps with only two people normally in the house, there would be too many days between regeneration. We use about 70-80 gallons per day total per the Culligan meter. I do like the option of a large system for guest and holidays, etc and of course for efficiency (can I run a lower salt dosage if I run a 2 CF system?).
    All softeners have an adjustable K of capacity because that is controlled by the salt lbs used per regeneration because they are adjustable. kinda like saying your right foot controls your fuel mileage and how many miles you can drive between fill ups...

    For more on all this sizing stuff, and remember that you can use less than 6lb/cuft;
    http://www.qualitywaterassociates.co...izingchart.htm
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #52
    DIY Member John Vegas's Avatar
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    Assumine 20 grains with 70 gallons per day of use, a 2 CF system with a 3 LB/CF salt dosage, the system would regen about every 18 days. Is this too long? Of course I guess you can force it to regen sooner, but would the system be considered oversized?

    The only reason I was considering the 2 CF system versus the 1.5 is that the 2 CF system is only like $40 more.

    JS

  8. #53
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    The 2 cu. ft would be my choice. Every 18 days is fine. Going past 30 days is where you might want to consider going smaller. Or if you have iron/manganese in the water.

  9. #54
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    Assumine 20 grains with 70 gallons per day of use, a 2 CF system with a 3 LB/CF salt dosage, the system would regen about every 18 days. Is this too long? Of course I guess you can force it to regen sooner, but would the system be considered oversized?

    The only reason I was considering the 2 CF system versus the 1.5 is that the 2 CF system is only like $40 more.

    JS
    You don't mention anything about your peak demand flow rate....

    You can program with fewer than 3 lbs/cuft. Most if not all resin manufacturers suggest a weekly regeneration.

    Most 2 people households use 60 gals or a bit less per person per day.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #55
    DIY Member John Vegas's Avatar
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    The peak demand flow rate is like no more than 8.5 gallons/minute (based on three 2.5 gallon/min showerheads running at once plus a faucet, which is very rare, but I would like to be able to accommodate it with 100% soft water)(I figured any of the 48K or 64K systems with the 7000SXT would accommodate the flow rate that I need--which is usually only one shower and one sink like 90% of the time).

    The 70 gallons total (it varies usually between 65 and 75) is what my Culligan says I use on average between regenerations. I only have two people in home, two daily showers, front loader washer, ultra low flow toilets, Bosch super efficient dishwasher, etc. We are very conservative with water usage. It goes up a wee bit in the summer, but we have an unsoftened outdoor shower that is often used in the summer so it is fairly static. Neither one of us is home during the day (working fools) except on weekends.

    I didn't realize you can program with fewer than 3 lb/CF, that might be an option I guess. I think this drastically hurts water efficiency though, and water is getting expensive here.

    Thanks, JS
    Last edited by John Vegas; 11-06-2012 at 03:20 PM.

  11. #56
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    The peak demand flow rate is like no more than 8.5 gallons/minute (based on three 2.5 gallon/min showerheads running at once plus a faucet, which is very rare, but I would like to be able to accommodate it with 100% soft water).
    Most 2.5 BR houses will normally have a peak demand of up to 12 gpm. You are estimating less than a 1 bath house usually has.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    The 70 gallons total (it varies usually between 65 and 75) is what my Culligan says I use on average between regenerations.
    Then it must be regenerating every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    I only have two people in home, two daily showers, front loader washer, ultra low flow toilets, Bosch super efficient dishwasher, etc. We are very conservative with water usage. It goes up a wee bit in the summer, but we have an unsoftened outdoor shower that is often used in the summer so it is fairly static. Neither one of us is home during the day (working fools) except on weekends.
    The water pressure and ID of the plumbing delivered a given flow of water to the water using appliances.fixtures and usually regardless of the water sue efficiency, the water flows the same gpm as the world's worst water efficiency appliance/fixture. The efficiency is found in how short time wise that the water flows into the appliance/fixture; the gpm flow rate is the same, they just fill etc. for a shorter time frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    I didn't realize you can program with fewer than 3 lb/CF, that might be an option I guess. I think this drastically hurts water efficiency though, and water is getting expensive here.
    Yep, all the way down to the fewest lbs the control valve will allow. You can also reduce the number of minutes for each of the 4-6 cycle positions of a regeneration, which reduces the volume of water used per regeneration. BTW, a few more gallons of water per regeneration will be less costly than the cost of more salt and new resin out in the future.

    To figure capacity, 2 people * 60 gals/person/day * the hardness (+any iron * 4) = grains per day. Times 8 days = the K of capacity. Then use a salt efficiency of 3333 grains/lb to come up with the salt dose lbs by dividing the K of capacity by 3333. The divide the K of capacity by the hardness (20 gpg) to get the number of gallons on the meter.

    If you are using a control valve that requires a reserve capacity, add one day to the 8 (use 9 days) but only use the total grains for 8 days as the K of capacity for the meter setting' leaving the added day as the reserve. The salt dose has to be set for the 9 days.

    I think I have all that right.... show me your math and I'll check it.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 11-07-2012 at 04:31 AM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #57
    DIY Member John Vegas's Avatar
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    Default More questions.

    I tested each shower, and a five gallon buckets fills up in about 2 minutes. They are 2.5 gallon per min shower heads. Three heads plus a one gallon per min sink (it was close, 5 gallons in about 4.5 minutes). That is how I got 7.5 gal per min plus the 1 gallon per minute +/- sink. I know the flow has nothing to do with the efficiency of the fixture, appliance, etc.

    The Culligan says I use about 70 gallons PER DAY (this has been consistent for three years). It is NOT regenerating daily. I should have been more clear in my post, the 70 gallons is per day and the Culligan regenerates about every 14 days.

    I have 70 gallons PER DAY * 20 grains = 1400 grains per day. 1400*8=11200. 11200/3333=3.36 or so. So salt dose should be 3 with 8 day regeneration?

    I think the 7000SXT allows some programming for reserve, not sure yet!

    JS


    [QUOTE=Gary Slusser;360378]Most 2.5 BR houses will normally have a peak demand of up to 12 gpm. You are estimating less than a 1 bath house usually has.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    The 70 gallons total (it varies usually between 65 and 75) is what my Culligan says I use on average between regenerations.
    Then it must be regenerating every day.


    The water pressure and ID of the plumbing delivered a given flow of water to the water using appliances.fixtures and usually regardless of the water sue efficiency, the water flows the same gpm as the world's worst water efficiency appliance/fixture. The efficiency is found in how short time wise that the water flows into the appliance/fixture; the gpm flow rate is the same, they just fill etc. for a shorter time frame.


    Yep, all the way down to the fewest lbs the control valve will allow. You can also reduce the number of minutes for each of the 4-6 cycle positions of a regeneration, which reduces the volume of water used per regeneration. BTW, a few more gallons of water per regeneration will be less costly than the cost of more salt and new resin out in the future.

    To figure capacity, 2 people * 60 gals/person/day * the hardness (+any iron * 4) = grains per day. Times 8 days = the K of capacity. Then use a salt efficiency of 3333 grains/lb to come up with the salt dose lbs by dividing the K of capacity by 3333. The divide the K of capacity by the hardness (20 gpg) to get the number of gallons on the meter.

    If you are using a control valve that requires a reserve capacity, add one day to the 8 (use 9 days) but only use the total grains for 8 days as the K of capacity for the meter setting' leaving the added day as the reserve. The salt dose has to be set for the 9 days.

    I think I have all that right.... show me your math and I'll check it.
    Last edited by John Vegas; 11-06-2012 at 04:38 PM.

  13. #58
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    I tested each shower, and a five gallon buckets fills up in about 2 minutes. They are 2.5 gallon per min shower heads. Three heads plus a one gallon per min sink (it was close, 5 gallons in about 4.5 minutes). That is how I got 7.5 gal per min plus the 1 gallon per minute +/- sink. I know the flow has nothing to do with the efficiency of the fixture, appliance, etc.

    The Culligan says I use about 70 gallons PER DAY (this has been consistent for three years). It is NOT regenerating daily. I should have been more clear in my post, the 70 gallons is per day and the Culligan regenerates about every 14 days.
    Understand you have two different capacities you're trying to find a balance between: hardness capacity vs water use and regeneration interval, as well as SFR (Service Flow Rate) - the maximum water flow you can soften. You say you use 70 gallons per day. That says you can use a small softener. Problem is, a small softener has a lower SFR. So what most people end up doing is sizing the softener to get a reasonable service flow rate that will service not necessarily all their fixtures, but a reasonable estimate of "worst case" useage. Let's say something like the bathtub, one shower, and the washing machine starts to fill. This example is not entirely out of the question, and could represent 12 GPM.

    Your estimate of 8.5 GPM is not reasonable. Don't you also have a bathtub, washing machine and dishwasher? I'm not suggesting you'll use everything at once, but keep in mind most properly-plumbed bathubs can run through 6 - 7 GPM by themselves. You really should size for at least 10 GPM SFR, or even 12 GPM. If this means you go two or three weeks between regenerations it is actually not a big deal. Also, you can reduce capacity by regenerating with 4 lbs/ft instead of the 6 lbs/ft "best compromise" concentration.

    Many on this forum, myself included, go 2 - 4 weeks between regenerations without any ill effects as long as the incoming water is clean (no iron). Certainly, a carbon tank upstream of the softener helps with this approach by catching any greeblies, but you should be OK if you don't have sediment or other funk in your water.

  14. #59
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    I tested each shower, and a five gallon buckets fills up in about 2 minutes. They are 2.5 gallon per min shower heads. Three heads plus a one gallon per min sink (it was close, 5 gallons in about 4.5 minutes). That is how I got 7.5 gal per min plus the 1 gallon per minute +/- sink. I know the flow has nothing to do with the efficiency of the fixture, appliance, etc.
    The best and basically only place to measure is a tub. Tubs are not flow controlled.

    The Culligan says I use about 70 gallons PER DAY (this has been consistent for three years). It is NOT regenerating daily. I should have been more clear in my post, the 70 gallons is per day and the Culligan regenerates about every 14 days.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Vegas View Post
    I have 70 gallons PER DAY * 20 grains = 1400 grains per day. 1400*8=11200. 11200/3333=3.36 or so. So salt dose should be 3 with 8 day regeneration?
    No not 3 lbs for 3.36 lbs., 3.5 or 4 lbs if the control doesn't allow fractions of a lb. And the 11.2K, you round that up to 12K and then redo the math for the lbs required for that capacity and round up to the next whole number of lbs. if using a Fleck valve.
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    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  15. #60
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    Understand you have two different capacities you're trying to find a balance between: hardness capacity vs water use and regeneration interval, as well as SFR (Service Flow Rate) - the maximum water flow you can soften.
    What do you mean by two different capacities?

    There is the K of capacity you program based on the salt dose used for the salt efficiency you want based on the type and volume of resin you bought and the salt dose/K of capacity is based on the compensated hardness in your water.

    Then, which should be the first part of correctly sizing a softener, there is the constant SFR you need to cover your peak demand gpm of water use in the house. That is based on the volume of resin.

    Then you select a control valve that can be used for the size of tank the volume of resin requires to allow a 50% freeboard area. Freeboard is the empty space above the top of the resin up to the dome part of the tank. That allows proper resin bed expansion for proper backwashing of the resin to remove sediment/dirt etc. that the resin has collected during the service run between regenerations. The longer the service run, the more sediment/dirt and the longer the backwash should be.... if you can get it all out of the resin. If not, the resin fails prematurely and you start getting hardness through the softener and either replace the resin or the softener years before you should have to.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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