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Thread: Softener vs Conditioner

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member truckkerjoe's Avatar
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    Default Softener vs Conditioner

    Hello to all,
    We are trying to mainly get rid of (Manganese 0.236,) Iron 0.0100mg PH 7.34mg and the Hardness is 12grams.Instead of using a salt softener after a plastic cistern Tank, will a flex7000 filter/ Conditioner Head with Birm take out most of that 12gms before it (if replaced) reaches this Tank? (no-psi) until well-pump kicks on.Trying to save on water as far as Regenerate or Backwashing.What does 8% crosslinked Resin mean? can other Resins co-mix,with Birm!!Sorry about stupid writing!Was told you need positive pressure all-the-time for a soft. or a Filter. Thanks to all.

  2. #2
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    A correctly sized water softener is all you need.

    On your own well, you don't need any type of special resin, regular regular mesh works very well for many years and costs the least.

    Birm does not soften water and is used in water filters that backwash.

    Conditioners, called "salt free softeners", do not remove hardness, iron or manganese.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #3
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Sounds like he is pumping low yield into a holding tank and trying to avoid using extra water that a softener needs to backwash.

    I would like a better description of what you have for pumps, tank size and if you know the gpm yield on your source.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  4. #4
    DIY Junior Member truckkerjoe's Avatar
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    Hello, Yes we have a low-producing well,after the first draw 70gals we only get 1gallon after about 1 hour,so trying to save as much as we can! I think it is a half-horse,80ft well.(tank500gal)Positive pressure all-the-time for a soft. or a Filter???Can it work like a in-line housing or does it need a 2nd bladder tank? Thank-you.

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    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Your water is hard and there is some iron there as well but judging from the yield on your well I think installing any backwashing filter is eventually going to cause a problem. I'm not a big fan of these things but Watts (www.watts.com) and a couple of other manufacturers do sell filtration that is non backwashing. the downside is that it's expensive and you need to change out the entire media when the filter is exhausted. Stay away from magnetic or radio wave technology or any of those things you hear advertised on the radio like sleazy water and rip you off rod. they don't work, can't work, never work and only serve to lighten your wallet. If you were considering any of those go here first please www.chem1.com/CQ
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  6. #6
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    A large correctly sized softener programed for high water and salt efficiency will probably not use more than a quarter of the 500 gal tank volume once every 7-9 days. And a regular/normal size softener (family of 3-4, no large tubs or showers or body sprays) usually not more than like 50-70 gallons total; once every 7-9 days.

    And that will be during the night, hours before the family would get up and use water and if needed, they could reduce their normal water use volume that morning by showering the night before and doing laundry on another day instead of the day after the regeneration.

    I'm not understanding the positive pressure part... Any softener or iron filter has to be plumbed with pressurized water. That's after a pressure tank. And unless that 500 gal tank is pressurized, which I would advise against, you need a pump and pressure tank after the tank and before the softener/filter. Or a submersible pump in the 500 gal tank and a pressure tank after the tank, before a softener/filter.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #7
    DIY Junior Member truckkerjoe's Avatar
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    Hello,Thanks to ALL who responded,this is a nice forum,ok got-it!!! but my water man told us that you can place a softener before(no-psi) cistern tank just like a in-line filter,with 2 solenoid valves that will open or close? when well pump starts.We have to place a second feed/inlet line for backwashing.This manganese builds inside cistern 1/4'' thick thats why...getting it before tank,Anyways thanks to all,KEEP-ON-TRUCKKIN!!!!!!!!!

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    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    It sounds like you have two pumps then? One pumping from the ground into the holding tank, then a presssure tank/pump combo that takes it from the holding tank to the house? If I get this right, and based on what you said about the low-flow from the well.... my concern would be having enough water to do a regen cycle properly. As Gary said, you can maximize salt and minimize water per regen, but that's assuming the water is always available... but what if you have a drop in water level, or output due to low water table, or whatever? No guarantee that the cycle would complete properly. If you plumbed the system to use softened/pressurized water after the tank to complete the regen cycle, then it should work.

  9. #9
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Manganese does not create anything brown but IRB (iron reducing bacteria) can be anything between clear to black and slimy, maybe manganese reducing bacteria does but I've never heard of what you are describing blamed on manganese.

    Is there an odor to the water from the well or in the storage tank?

    You better check on how you need to plumb a softener before a storage tank. And you need a check valve between the well and the softener. You need the inlet from the well pump and the outlet to the storage tank, and to keep the softener under pressure. But you don't add any new lines, you cut a spot out of the existing line and put the softener in it. Frankly I would not do this, I would clean the tank as needed and the softener would go inline after the pressure tank after the storage tank.

    You'll have to have a pressure switch for the well pump and shut it off periodically. If you run water into the storage tank instead, you'll probably refill that tank and shut off the pump before the regeneration is finished. This idea of between the well and storage tank is a bad one.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by truckkerjoe View Post
    This manganese builds inside cistern 1/4'' thick thats why...getting it before tank,Anyways thanks to all,KEEP-ON-TRUCKKIN!!!!!!!!!
    That is pretty thick. The manganese is precipitating due to ample amounts of oxygen found in cistern-type systems and clinging to surfaces leaving a blackish or brownish stain. Brown or black stains from manganese can also be found in toilet tanks/bowls and may appear in clothing and other locations.

    Are you using any disinfectant in your cistern? How many people are using water at your location? Are you drinking this water or do you import it?

  11. #11
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by water solutions View Post
    That is pretty thick. The manganese is precipitating due to ample amounts of oxygen found in cistern-type systems and clinging to surfaces leaving a blackish or brownish stain. Brown or black stains from manganese can also be found in toilet tanks/bowls and may appear in clothing and other locations.

    Are you using any disinfectant in your cistern? How many people are using water at your location? Are you drinking this water or do you import it?
    So you think that his "We are trying to mainly get rid of (Manganese 0.236,) Iron 0.0100mg" is going to stain and then lay down a 1/4" coating on the inside of his storage tank. And although there's all that oxygen, you think he will still have some of that manganese in the water that gets into the house?

    I don't think so but, if it is a stain caused by manganese, which to me means it is hard, why is that a concern unless it is sloughing off into the water and falling to the bottom of the tank and being pumped out of the tank to the house?

    How about your thoughts on his question of installing equipment between the well pump and the storage tank?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    So you think that his "We are trying to mainly get rid of (Manganese 0.236,) Iron 0.0100mg" is going to stain and then lay down a 1/4" coating on the inside of his storage tank. And although there's all that oxygen, you think he will still have some of that manganese in the water that gets into the house?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I don't think so but, if it is a stain caused by manganese, which to me means it is hard, why is that a concern...?
    Because people don't like stains like brown ones caused by manganese.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by truckkerjoe View Post
    Hello to all,
    We are trying to mainly get rid of (Manganese 0.236,) Iron 0.0100mg PH 7.34mg and the Hardness is 12grams.Instead of using a salt softener after a plastic cistern Tank, will a flex7000 filter/ Conditioner Head with Birm take out most of that 12gms before it (if replaced) reaches this Tank? (no-psi) until well-pump kicks on.Trying to save on water as far as Regenerate or Backwashing.What does 8% crosslinked Resin mean? can other Resins co-mix,with Birm!!Sorry about stupid writing!Was told you need positive pressure all-the-time for a soft. or a Filter. Thanks to all.
    No, your questions are not stupid but, n fact, very important.

    Maybe this will help.
    http://www.apswater.com/article.asp?...n_do_you_need?

    Never mix BIRM with resins. A few kinds of media can be mixed with resins such as tannin resins. Some companies mix carbon with resin but i am not in favor with it.

  14. #14
    DIY Junior Member truckkerjoe's Avatar
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    Thanks to all you I''am learning so much.When oxygen and Manganese sits it will precipitate alot,we get it in the toilet and washing Man.and shower.Wanted to try the BIRM?but hardness is 196 or 12grms?will look into all resins?My water man said to place a 5600 economizer with 2 solenoid valves and inlet/fill line so when well-pump starts it will not dead-head!! the non(psi) line comming from the ground/well.Something like that? We were just thinking that most of that 12grms(hardness) wound get eliminated with BIRM and backwashing maybe 7 to 10 days thus saving water???instead of a softener and salt set-up.Anyways I found a forum that really helps people.ALL you pros are lifesavers.

  15. #15
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Birm, or any other manganese dioxide based media will do nothing for hardness. It will usually remove iron and manganese assuming their is enough oxygen in the water.

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