(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 27

Thread: Cycle Stop Valve = Lots of air?

  1. #1
    DIY Member jimmym's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    69

    Default Cycle Stop Valve = Lots of air?

    I just installed a CSV160 in my house.
    I plumb from the incoming pump pipe to the CSV160 -> Check-> bladder tank.
    I have the pressure switch set to 55/70. I'll be switching to a different pressure switch soon and try 55/65 PSI. I have amazing water pressure and flow. One thing though. I have a TON of air in the pipes.
    I installed it on Saturday morning and all went well. Upon startup, I bled the air (I thought) and it seemed to go well. My wife and I have taken showers, run the dishwasher, flushed toilets and still have air in the system. I took a shower this morning and had a lot of air noise from the shower valve and pipes. Also, when I used the sink, a lot of air, just air, came out.
    Can the restriction caused by the CSV throttling at low flow be causing this?
    How long should it take to get the air out of a completely empty system?

  2. #2
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wherever I park the motorhome.
    Posts
    6,790

    Default

    It sounds to me that something is adding air to the water. Maybe one of your plumbing joints is allowing air in but no water leak; that can happen with PE tubing and insert fittings.

    Are you sure there should be a check valve on the house side to the CSV?

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates

  3. #3

    Default

    I wondered about the checkvalve too Gary. I just installed a CSV on a system and the check was installed between pump and CSV, not after it.
    It sounds to me like, too, that there is air being introduced into the system.
    Ron

  4. #4
    DIY Member jimmym's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    69

    Default

    I was wondering about that check too. But the original arrangement had a check between the pump and tank. I just added the CSV between the pump and the check. I shut off the pump last night and ran the shower (end of the line) to empty the bladder tank into the system. It unloaded a TON of air into the pipes and I've vented most of it out. I'll be noting conditions throughout the week to see if there's any correlation. When the CSV is throttled down after water use and the tank is filling, I hear hissing, like the water is being squeezed through a small orifice. I understand that is, in fact, what is happening. But could this be causing cavitation and pulling dissolved air out of the water and leaving it undissolved. My wife and I love the water pressure. I just dread having to add an air separator.

    Once I have the air question answered, I'll be changing pressure switches to something like on-55/off-65. Do you pump and well gurus know of a switch like this? My Pumptrol can only go down to a 15PSI deadband.
    Last edited by jimmym; 12-20-2005 at 05:26 AM.

  5. #5
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wherever I park the motorhome.
    Posts
    6,790

    Default

    Go to http://www.cylestopvalves.com and look up the instructions. I don't think the check should be there. Most any switch can be adjusted with a 15 lb differential.

    Also, are you sure you have the correct model for your water system?

    I think your problem is a leak at the submersible pump check valve or in the plumbing between the CSV and the pump's check valve. The CSV is allowing air into the line and water is draining out of the plumbing back to the well. The check at the tank was hiding the problem until you installed to CSV which allows air into the plumbing.

    Ron, does that sound right to you, I've never installed a CSV?

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates

  6. #6
    DIY Member jimmym's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    69

    Default

    So if I move the check to the pump side of the CSV it should "re-mask" the problem? I'll go for that.
    I've got the switch down to the 15lb differential. I want to go to a 10 lb differential. As it is, the pump has to push 1 GPM through the CSV to get it from 60 PSI up to 70 PSI, then it shuts off. It just runs so long to get up to 70. I've got a pretty big bladder tank. I can't seem to find a Pumptrol type switch that goes down to a 10 PSI diff. But I have found a switch (10 amp capacity) elsewhere. I'll have to use it to drive a contactor, but it's no big deal.

  7. #7
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wherever I park the motorhome.
    Posts
    6,790

    Default

    You are undoing the benefits of the CSV by using a large pressure tank. The pressure tank, its compressed air, provides the pressure when the pump isn't running.

    Masking a leak in the well or of the pump's check valve is not a good idea. That's why I don't install a check at the pressure tank. If the leak is caused by a broken fitting, you can lose the pump down the well.

    You are geting up to the max pressure for a well water system when you get to 65-70 psi. Ifyou have a pressure relief valve, they are set to 75 psi and over that they blow. I suggest not more than 60 psi.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates

  8. #8
    DIY Member jimmym's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser
    You are undoing the benefits of the CSV by using a large pressure tank. The pressure tank, its compressed air, provides the pressure when the pump isn't running.

    Masking a leak in the well or of the pump's check valve is not a good idea. That's why I don't install a check at the pressure tank. If the leak is caused by a broken fitting, you can lose the pump down the well.

    You are geting up to the max pressure for a well water system when you get to 65-70 psi. Ifyou have a pressure relief valve, they are set to 75 psi and over that they blow. I suggest not more than 60 psi.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
    I agree about the tank size. But it's the tank that was there when it was just the standard pump/tank arrangement. If the air issue goes away (ie: I'm keeping the CSV), I'll get a smaller tank.

    Originally, it had a check between the pump and the tank (at the tank), and I never had problems with air at all. I don't think it was leaking back down the well because of a hole in the pipe above ground. If the CSV lets air in (Really???) it would act as a vacuum breaker if there were a problem at the pump and allow the water to drain back to water level. That would cause MASSIVE air problems.

    75 PSI huh? Damn, I thought it was 100 PSI. During testing it got a little over (indicated) 75 PSI. Lucky I didn't pop that thing open.
    Oh well, after I replace the pressure switch, it will cut in at 55 and out at 65 PSI. Maybe I'll return the CSV and get the 50 PSI model or get a 100 PSI relief.

  9. #9
    Previous member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Riverview, Fl.
    Posts
    4,540

    Default

    In my opinion the only check valve there should be is the one in the submersible pump. Like Gary said, your masking a leak with the check valve and that's the only way your getting air. Take the check valve out and the air will disappear. Of coarse your pump will cycle occasionally depending on the size of the leak and the size of your bladder tank.

    bob...

  10. #10
    DIY Member jimmym's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    69

    Default

    This has got me PISSED! I'm about to return the damn CSV.
    Monday night I shut off the pump, closed the valve between the tank and the house, and opened the hose bib drain. The tank emptied through the garden hose. After a little while 30-45 seconds. Air blew out of the hose in a powerful blast for a second, blowing water and gravel all over the place. When it stopped, I closed the drain, started the pump, and opened the house valve. I then opened every faucet in the house for about 10 minutes, until no more air came out of the faucets (pump holds 52 PSI with everything open). I shut them all off and things were pretty quiet for a while. Then the air started again. Blowing air out of the faucets with accompanying spitting water.
    The thing is... I had a check valve at the tank, BEFORE any air problems. I only inserted the CSV before the check.
    Where is the air coming from?
    Tonight I'm going to remove the CSV only, and drain/purge everything again.
    After that I'll remove the check and see if the line holds pressure. We'll see. I'm at my wits end. I wish I had the money to have a new pump, pipe, and VSD installed (how much, by the way?). Sorry to rant, guys.

  11. #11
    Previous member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Riverview, Fl.
    Posts
    4,540

    Default

    There is no way the CSV is giving you air Jimmym. It's not a nozzle and venturi so it can't draw air as the pump runs. It is a diaphragm type device that maintains a constant pressure upstream of itself.

    I think what you have here is a coincidence. A leak appeared just around the time you installed the CSV.

    I would remove the check valve no matter what is going on. It shouldn't be there.

    I hope the gravel you said went everywhere was not from the well!

    bob...

  12. #12
    DIY Member jimmym's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by speedbump
    There is no way the CSV is giving you air Jimmym. It's not a nozzle and venturi so it can't draw air as the pump runs. It is a diaphragm type device that maintains a constant pressure upstream of itself.

    I think what you have here is a coincidence. A leak appeared just around the time you installed the CSV.

    I would remove the check valve no matter what is going on. It shouldn't be there.

    I hope the gravel you said went everywhere was not from the well!

    bob...
    I was thinking that the CSV was causing cavitation and separating dissolved air.

    I'll re-examine everything for a possible leak. Then I'll pull the check valve (brand new) and see what happens. I don't like the idea of having the tank emptying through a leak somewhere. But what are my options really.
    I suppose I can shut off the pump over night and see what happens to the pressure.
    So, to sum up...
    Pump --> CSV --> Tank --> House
    Last edited by jimmym; 12-21-2005 at 07:14 AM.

  13. #13
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wherever I park the motorhome.
    Posts
    6,790

    Default

    I know you don't wanna hear this!! But another possibility is a dry well; air suction instead of water due to using more water with the constant pressure caused by the CSV AND you increased pressure settings.

    The proof is in your draining the tank and getting rid of all air and then it returning after 10 +/- minutes of running 52 psi with all faucets wide open, and back comes the air problem... So maybe no leak but too much water use.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates

  14. #14
    Previous member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Riverview, Fl.
    Posts
    4,540

    Default

    The danger of the check valve is; if you have a leak in the droppipe and/or the pipe from the well to the house. Since the check valve removes all the pressure from those lines, they are now a vacuum line which can pull contamination into the lines along with "AIR" which will be pumped into the house next time the pump comes on.

    Don't worry about water leaking out of the pipe under pressure without the check valve. Nothing is going to get into the pipes this way, just out.

    When you remove the check valve, I'm sure you will see that you have a leak/s somewhere on the pump side of the removed check valve.

    bob...

  15. #15
    DIY Member jimmym's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser
    I know you don't wanna hear this!! But another possibility is a dry well; air suction instead of water due to using more water with the constant pressure caused by the CSV AND you increased pressure settings.

    The proof is in your draining the tank and getting rid of all air and then it returning after 10 +/- minutes of running 52 psi with all faucets wide open, and back comes the air problem... So maybe no leak but too much water use.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
    The faucets never spit air while running for extended periods. Or immediately afterwards. There was almost no noise at all at the tank. You could barely hear water flowing through the pipes. It was quiet for a while then the air slowly reoccurred as the system was used normally. The next morning was the worst.
    If it turns out the well is going dry (I sincerely doubt it), we'll just have to have it punched down another hundred feet or whatever. At this point I can get the new pump and piping. I'd like to avoid this, but if it's necessary, it's necessary.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •