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Thread: 2 questions about softeners

  1. #16
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    You said one sodium ion and it is two sodium ions, per ion removed.

    And most homeowners want to know about added sodium, 7.85 mg/l per grain per gallon of compensated hardness being removed, so I explained how it works.

    I also corrected a few other things you said that were in error.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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  2. #17
    DIY Junior Member outcast's Avatar
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    ok, thanx. i will report back when i get the kit.

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member outcast's Avatar
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    ok, fella's. i got my HACH 5B test kit today. i am glad when i buy something that i am happy with.


    i did 2 tests & i was very carefull to get the amounts correct.
    the first one, the pink was really pink. i thought this was normal and didn't think anything of it.
    i didn't know that the bottle should be shaking as the drops are added. so my 37gpg may be a drop or two high in this test.
    the 2nd test. the pink was a lot less colorful . and as i added the drops, i was shaking the bottle.
    i got a 39gpg.

    also. the last few days, the water, while in the shower, has a bit of a taste/smell to it. it hasn't be like this the 2 months i have been here. but, it also has been raining much more than it has been. so "perhaps" that has something to do with it. idk, just sayin.

    like i said. 2 adults(for now, perhaps ever) a few loads of wash a week. and the little misc water that goes along.

  4. #19
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Selecting a Softener To Match Your Conditions

    At this point you've used your local conditions and your water usage to figure out how much softening is required per day. Water softeners are usually sized so that they regenerate about once per week. Why once per week? A once-a-week regeneration strikes a good balance between keeping the resin bed fresh and not exerting excessive wear and tear on the valve. A water softener valve contains moving parts but these parts only move when the softener is regenerating. Regenerating once-a-week also keeps the water consumption low; a water softener uses about 50 gallons when it regenerates.

    If we take the Daily Softening Requirement of 3000 grains per day and multiple this by 7 days, we need a softener that can soften 21,000 grains of total hardness in order to regenerate once per week. So what size of water softener offers 21,000 grains of total softening capacity? This is where widespread incorrect information found on the internet and elsewhere can hide the real answer.

    A quick look online and in many stores will reveal an abundance of 24,000 / 32,000 / 48,000 / and 64,000 grain capacity water softeners. At first glance it would appear that the 24,000 grain system would be ideal using our example above, where we're looking for 21,000 grains of total softening capacity. Unfortunately the resellers of the 24,000 grain system fail to reveal that it takes 27 pounds of salt to fully regenerate this system to the 24,000 grain level. A more accurate description of the "24,000" system is "0.75 cubic feet". This is the amount of resin this system contains. While it's true that a user can get 24,000 grains of capacity from this amount of resin, it uses a massive amount of salt to accomplish this.

    What most dealers call a "32,000" grain system is more accurately described as a "1 cubic foot" system because it contains one cubic foot of softening resin. In order to get 32,000 grains capacity from this system the user would have to use 36 pounds of salt per regeneration! What is very interesting though, is that if you use 6 pounds of salt to regenerate a one cubic foot system, it will yield 20,000 grains of softening capacity. Although the one cubic foot unit will cost a little more than a 0.75 cubic foot unit the savings in salt will make up for this cost difference very quickly. Less salt to purchase, less salt to lug, and less salt discharged to the environment.

    High Salt-Efficiency Water Softener Guide

    In order to maximize salt efficiency and ultimately save heaps of salt it's important to understand how much softening capacity is yielded by different quantities of resin. Again, these capacities are based on the highest salt efficiencies possible:

    0.75 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 15,000 grains capacity

    1.0 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 20,000 grains capacity

    1.5 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 30,000 grains capacity

    2.0 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 40,000 grains capacity

    3.0 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 60,000 grains capacity

    4.0 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 80,000 grains capacity

    The above is copied from Aquatel's web site and saves me a lot of typing so.....2 people x 75 gallons per day x 39gpg and no iron? comes out to 5858 gpg daily which could be done with a 48,000 grain capacity unit but.... I would go with a 64,000 grain capacity and get better salt efficiency. The 75 gallons per day is maybe high, most are using 60 gallons but either way I would still run a 2cu/ft filter
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 05-10-2012 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Typo's friggin typo's
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  5. #20
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Selecting a Softener To Match Your Conditions

    At this point you've used your local conditions and your water usage to figure out how much softening is required per day. Water softeners are usually sized so that they regenerate about once per week. Why once per week? A once-a-week regeneration strikes a good balance between keeping the resin bed fresh and not exerting excessive wear and tear on the valve. A water softener valve contains moving parts but these parts only move when the softener is regenerating. Regenerating once-a-week also keeps the water consumption low; a water softener uses about 50 gallons when it regenerates.

    If we take the Daily Softening Requirement of 3000 grains per day and multiple this by 7 days, we need a softener that can soften 21,000 grains of total hardness in order to regenerate once per week. So what size of water softener offers 21,000 grains of total softening capacity? This is where widespread incorrect information found on the internet and elsewhere can hide the real answer.

    A quick look online and in many stores will reveal an abundance of 24,000 / 32,000 / 48,000 / and 64,000 grain capacity water softeners. At first glance it would appear that the 24,000 grain system would be ideal using our example above, where we're looking for 21,000 grains of total softening capacity. Unfortunately the resellers of the 24,000 grain system fail to reveal that it takes 27 pounds of salt to fully regenerate this system to the 24,000 grain level. A more accurate description of the "24,000" system is "0.75 cubic feet". This is the amount of resin this system contains. While it's true that a user can get 24,000 grains of capacity from this amount of resin, it uses a massive amount of salt to accomplish this.

    What most dealers call a "32,000" grain system is more accurately described as a "1 cubic foot" system because it contains one cubic foot of softening resin. In order to get 32,000 grains capacity from this system the user would have to use 36 pounds of salt per regeneration! What is very interesting though, is that if you use 6 pounds of salt to regenerate a one cubic foot system, it will yield 20,000 grains of softening capacity. Although the one cubic foot unit will cost a little more than a 0.75 cubic foot unit the savings in salt will make up for this cost difference very quickly. Less salt to purchase, less salt to lug, and less salt discharged to the environment.

    High Salt-Efficiency Water Softener Guide

    In order to maximize salt efficiency and ultimately save heaps of salt it's important to understand how much softening capacity is yielded by different quantities of resin. Again, these capacities are based on the highest salt efficiencies possible:

    0.75 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 15,000 grains capacity

    1.0 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 20,000 grains capacity

    1.5 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 30,000 grains capacity

    2.0 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 40,000 grains capacity

    3.0 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 60,000 grains capacity

    4.0 Cubic Feet of Softener Resin = 80,000 grains capacity

    The above is copied from Aquatel's web site and saves me a lot of typing so.....2 people x 75 gallons per day x 39gpg and no iron? comes out to 5858 gpg daily which could be done with a 4,800 grain capacity unit but.... I would go with a 6,400 grain capacity and get better salt efficiency. The 75 gallons per day is maybe high, most are using 60 gallons but either way I would still run a 2cu/ft filter
    It looks like you've never done this type thing before because you've got some very serious errors in that.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #21
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Ok, I'll file that comment where is belongs LOL
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  7. #22
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    It looks like you've never done this type thing before because you've got some very serious errors in that.
    Can you point out the errors above, please? Cuz I got basically the same info from multiple sites, including http://www.qualitywaterassociates.co...izingchart.htm
    The article above DID fail ot mention that you will basically never reach the manufacturer's capacity of 32K/48K/64K etc. without dual-regens.

    And not sure why you say Mr. Sawyer doesn't know what he is talking about, since the only error I noticed is that he spelled their website with only one "L". Otherwise, it's a copy/paste. Perhaps your argument is with Aquatell?

  8. #23
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Ahhhhh you must understand that in Gary's mind, he is the only person on the face of the planet capable of doing simple multiplication. LOL Indeed, you will find much the same information on just about everybody's web site and from most of the professionals as well but....we are all wrong and Gary is right. At least in his mind anyway LOL
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  9. #24
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    I did see a minor potential error, if it is a cut and paste, I can see where the "fuzzy math" is being applied by Aquatell, but who cares. Also, the biggest sin of all, Tom left out a zero while typing, he meant 48,000 not 4800. Tom should be banned for a typo! I will lead the charge!!!! They claim that 36 pounds of salt is needed to get 32,000 grains per cu. ft, we usually use 18 pounds to get 30,000 beacuase anything beyond 30,000 becomes difficult to achieve since you are hitting the uppermost limits of the medias potential capacity and the charts level off so dramatically that we realy dont calculate beyond 30000 Grains. Just like we dont bother going below 3 pounds of salt per cubic foot because the capacity charts and efficiencies show that less than 3 lbs. is insignificant in the rise in efficiency.

    The point remains, Tom is correct in that a 2 or maybe even a 2.5 cubic foot system would be ideal for your application. A 7000 valve would almost ensure you would never have any flow issues, and you could regenerate with 6 pounds of salt per cu. ft. of resin for very high salt efficiency. If you are planning on adding a lot of people to the house, this is one of the rare times a twin alternating would become ideal. A Fleck 9100SXT would be in order if you are going to exceed 4 people in the future, but even this is hard to justify. You could achieve very similar effieicnecies with a 7000XTR with variable brining, but these are not typically available except through exclusive dealers. Watts has a modified 7000 valve that has this function and it works exceptionally well for very high hardness applications with a lot of people. It is one of the few ways to get extreme efficiency without having to go to a twin alternator.

  10. #25
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Oh my god, now I am red faced with embarrassment because I did indeed miss the zero but in my defense I think I was in the middle of breaking up a fight while typing. LOL
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  11. #26
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    In the interest of experimentation, I am using Morton iodized salt instead of salt pellets, and only 1.3 lbs/cu ft in an attempt to establish a lower boundary of efficiency. I'm sure it's going to work, but I am typing this as I stand beside my brine tank, pouring shaker after shaker of salt into the tank... one hand pours, the other types. Been at it for 3 hours and 22 minutes, estimating another 13 hours will be needed to have enough to do the next regen cycle. More to follow as data "flows" in...

  12. #27
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    In the interest of experimentation, I am using Morton iodized salt instead of salt pellets, and only 1.3 lbs/cu ft in an attempt to establish a lower boundary of efficiency. I'm sure it's going to work, but I am typing this as I stand beside my brine tank, pouring shaker after shaker of salt into the tank... one hand pours, the other types. Been at it for 3 hours and 22 minutes, estimating another 13 hours will be needed to have enough to do the next regen cycle. More to follow as data "flows" in...
    I have been on at least 100 service calls in my time in the feild to restaurants where the manager ran out of salt and decided to use their 50 lb bags of table salt in the softener. It would instantly seize up the check/brine draw tube every time. I would go out, put a garden hose from their water heater into the tank, dissolve the entire tank of salt to the drain, sanitize/clean the brine tank, refill it with rock/solar salt and all was good, except for the lost salt and $100 labor charge.

  13. #28
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Oh my god, now I am red faced with embarrassment because I did indeed miss the zero but in my defense I think I was in the middle of breaking up a fight while typing. LOL
    You didn't miss just one zero. And now after dittohead has pointed out other mistakes, you conveniently aren't acknowledging them.

    F6hawk, please show me the same errors on my web site.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #29
    DIY Junior Member outcast's Avatar
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    ok, fella's. i have to admit , this stuff is a bit over my head.
    so i am just going to ask.

    on the short list. 5600sxt, 7000sxt. either 48000 or 64000. saving $$$ on salt is a GOOD thing. as is easy of operation(though i would figure it out after a lil while ) and reliability.

    now "if you were me", what would you choose ? if any of these.

  15. #30
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    You didn't miss just one zero. And now after dittohead has pointed out other mistakes, you conveniently aren't acknowledging them.

    F6hawk, please show me the same errors on my web site.
    You are right, I missed two zero's....so what? with the exception of you, everyone else knew what I was talking about and I fixed it and I acknowledged that I mistyped and that I edited my mistake. Are you now satisfied or do we have to continue with this supercilious nonsense? You spend so much of your time trying to discredit everyone and only succeed in discrediting yourself.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

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