Resin-Tech CG8-BL vs. CGS-BL

[FleckLander]

Thanks for all the great advice I received in prior posts. I decided to forgo the Vortech tank and go with a 5600SXT in 64K with regular resin tank. Will be ordering the unit Monday from one of two online dealers.

Just need some advice on resin upgrades. Someone in the household has stated that they don't want no #### Chinese crap in there. In the interest of maintaining household harmony, I'll spend the extra $ for a resin upgrade, even though I really wouldn't need it. One online company offers Resin-Tech CGS-BL as an upgrade. The other company offers Resin-Tech CG8-BL as an upgrade. Both upgrades are $40.

Based on the spec sheets, CGS-BL is a USA made high capacity resin, while CG8-BL is a USA made premium grade, high capacity resin. For the same cost, CG8-BL appears to be a better deal, as it's the premium grade. Just wanted to check and make sure that these Resin-Tech resins aren't junk or anything, or that the high capacity one is actually better than the premium one. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Gary Slusser]

I have no experience with either of those resins but I'd go with any old manufacturers' resin; like Purolite C-100, Dow etc.

Otherwise I think you've made good choices.

[FleckLander]

I'm discovering that buying a softener online is kinda like the wild wild west regarding resin selection. One site says "tested by WQA", but doesn't say "tested and certified by WQA". Is that just an ommission or an attempt to deceive.....lol One site touts they have USA made DOW resin, but it's a version made for industrial use and not WQA certified. One site says "Made in USA" for their resin, but the manufacturer says its made offshore but heavily tested in the USA.....lol

Before I drive myself crazy with this, I decided just to go with a tested and certified resin, no matter where it's made. But now I see "NSF/ANSI-44 and 61 certified for material safety", "NSF/ANSI-44/61 certified", and "WQA Gold Seal Certified". Can anyone explain what these various ratings mean? Much thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide.

[ditttohead]

Explaingin certifications is a very large topic.

I will simplify it as best i can.

NSF, ANSI, WRAS, UPC, WQA, etc... are competing certification companies. Most will be able to cross refence eachothers certifications. I have equipment certified by different agencies to meetthe needs/marketing of the countries the product is intended to be sold in.

For the US market, NSF, UPC, WQA are all highly reputable agencies and will cross reference over to eachother.

A WQA Gold Seal Certified Resin will have to meet certain criteria for being solvent free, and will not impart impurities into the water.

For your resin, a 8-10% crosslink, WQA Gold Seal Certitfied resin is all you need. If you can get a USA made resin, all the better.

Dont work too hard on this, resin is fairly inexpensive, lasts a very long time, and is easy to replace in the future if it needs to be.

Do not buy cheap resin, it may be less than 8% crosslink, which has a tendancy to fail quickly when exposed to even small amounts of oxidizing agents or even normal use.

We use primarily NSF for our certifications, but we also spend a little bit of money with UPC and WQA to keep them happy.

[water solutions]

Certifications on water products helps the consumer understand that certain product pass rigorous testing and qualify for excellence. There are many products that are tested but do not pass and many that avoid testing. There are also system certifications and component certifications. With system ratings, the whole unit as used is tested and with component testing, one or more parts may have passed, like the holding tank, but not the whole system. These companies can paste a sticker on the product but should note what part has been certified. Also, make note of the number in the certification as it indicates what testing protocol was run and what it is certified for. It might be nothing more than to state that nothing harmful is added to the water, or it may mean that it actually serves as a microbiological barrier.
http://www.wqa.org/sitelogic.cfm?ID=1003

There are many so-called professionals that actually put little regard to these testing organizations/certifications and pass them off as no more than advertising hype or a reasoning for inflated pricing--you can guess what quality of products they may prefer to deal with. Consumers have a choice to educate themselves so that buyer may be aware.

[ditttohead]

Well stated. We certify many of our systems. Many of our units are built with all certified equipment but the unit as a whole is not certified. We charge considerably more for our NSF certified systems. Many smaller companies cant afford to certify their equipment. A standard residential RO system can cost approximately 20-40 thousand to get through NSF assuming all of the build components are already certified by NSF. If parts are not currently certified, each component can cost approximately 10-15 thousand each so a cost of 100 thousand is not unusual for a complex piece of water treatment equipment.

You should try certifying to ASME, some of our components that have the ASME stamp can cost 4 times more than not stamped. And they are the exact same part.

I would highly recommend Certified components, especially since you are ingesting, bathing, or breathing in this water.

[FleckLander]

Thanks for everyones comments. Getting back to the original question, I actually found an online retailer who seems to know what they are talking about. Their standard C108 8% resin manufactured by General Technologies in China is actualy WQA certified to NSF 44 and 61. They even gave me the link to the website. Their upgrade Dow resin made in the USA doesn't show up on the WQA website. Go figure......lol

This particular online retailer uses Structural resin tanks, Clack brine tanks, Fleck safety brine valves, and Fleck valves. I believe all these components are made in the USA and certified by somebody on the individual component side. I don't think I'll hold it against them that the assembled softener isn't certified to NSF 44 because I'm assuming that it's a matter of a small OEM not wanting to spend the $10's of thousands to get that certification for the assembled softener.

They also said that they too sell a lot of the 7000SXT's. I'm getting the impression that the people who actually use the 7000SXT like it. This online retailer indicated that they did have a problem when Fleck moved the 7000 line to Mexico a few years back, but all is well now that the 7000 line is back in the USA. So I'm going to go with the 7000SXT now instead of the 5600SXT. They don't stock the Fleck 32mm distributor, they only stock the Clack 32 mm distributor. From what I can gather, the Clack 32 mm distributor is OK?

[ditttohead]

The Clack 32 mm distributor is excellent. We have had no field failures of the Clack bottom screens. You are also correct, the larger companies that use the 7000SXT rarely push any other product since it simplifies their inventory and service. When they are used in heavy industrial application, 5 Cu. foot systems regenerating daily they last for many years with no service. When service is required, a rebuild takes as little as 5 minutes and the system is as good as new.

Complete system certification is not critical, on a standard softener, it does confirm that all the parts work together as advertised. It can also be used as an effective marketing tool. In some counties and cities, it is a code requirement. The certification cost for a complete system can be as high as 15-50K, depending on what certification level it is being designed to. Resin certification has become a reasonable issue lately due to the solvents that can be used during manufacturing are not something you want to consume. Certain resins are certified as solvent free.

I was just at the Fallbrook manufacturing and assembly facility for Fleck, the 7000 assembly line is very impressive and top notch. The newly updated valvebody molds are a nice update. the only valve I see competing with the 7000 in the future is the 5800 coming out shortly. The 5800 will probably not be available for online sales so for the DIY crowd, it will not be an issue. The components you listed will all seve you well for many years. We also mix brine tanks, mieral tanks, resin manufacturers etc. to meet our customers needs, and our customers cost concerns.

[ditttohead]

Flecklander, the 7000SXT will be fine, new mold, or the "old mold". Most people understand that molds have a limited life and when the molds reach a certain number of products made, the molds will typically go in for "service". They are tested, tolerances issues are corrected, etc. At that time, the cost to make minor changes is minimal so many molds are "tweaked" at this point. The 7000SXT that has been out for over a decade had the molds reworked last year, and some areas were beefed up because it was found that the valve neck can crack when the valves are installed incorrectly (too tight), or when the plumbing is done poorly causing undue stress on the neck of the valve (discussed earlier, flexible connection, or enough flex in the plumbing to accomodate the tanks expansion and contraction) I have seen Clack, Autotrol, 5600 valves, etc all suffer this same problem. It is not a bad valve or mold by Clack, Autotrol, or Fleck, but if the potential problem can be less likely to happen with a little tweaking, then I applaud a company that spends the money to improve an already exceptional product. Considering the valve body on my house is over 12 years old (first production run 7000), with hard copper, very little flex built in, with a stacked tank configuration (this creates double the tank expenasion and contraction) I would say you will be just fine. And before somebody says I did not put in flexible connectors.... you are correct. It is by design. The attampt is to find weaknesses, to put the systems under undue stress, this is to see if the product will hold up long term. I would give it a passing grade so far. The same reason I now have 4 tanks on my personal system controlled by 1 valve, it is for testing purposes, to see in the real world what happens when you push system design to the limits.

[Gary Slusser]

Flecklander, the 7000SXT will be fine, new mold, or the "old mold". Most people understand that molds have a limited life and when the molds reach a certain number of products made, the molds will typically go in for "service". They are tested, tolerances issues are corrected, etc. At that time, the cost to make minor changes is minimal so many molds are "tweaked" at this point. The 7000SXT that has been out for over a decade had the molds reworked last year, and some areas were beefed up because it was found that the valve neck can crack when the valves are installed incorrectly (too tight), or when the plumbing is done poorly causing undue stress on the neck of the valve (discussed earlier, flexible connection, or enough flex in the plumbing to accomodate the tanks expansion and contraction)

That sounds a bit more serious than tweaking tolerances and previously you have said there were no serious problems with the 7000. Cracked valve bodies sounds serious to me.

[FleckLander]

Now I'll have to call them again and confirm that these are all current production 7000SXT's. Am I correct in assuming that the valve should come in a factory sealed box with a production date on it somewhere and a serial number on the valve?

[ditttohead]

The 7000SXT comes individually boxed and there is a production date on the box. I would not worry about it being the newer or the older mold, I doubt anybody could even find the differences. The "old" mold has no problems, other than the same problem every plastic valve on the market has, overtightening. I did have a discussion with one of the largest 7000SXT dealers in the industry and he had a great insite that I overlooked, and I should not have missed something so obvious. The 7000SXT tank neck o-ring has the ability to fall out in the box during shipping. The o-ring is fits in a groove and, the box design makes it hard to notice when you are mass assembling systems. Part of the asembly procudeure check sheet here is to confirm the o-ring is in position. If the o-ring is not noticed during assembly, the system will leak when the system is started up. A customer may attampt to fix the leak by tightening the valve even more. Without the o-ring, their is no "cushion" between the tank and neck. Any additional tightening will almost cetainly cause damage. The threads in the tank, and the threads on the valve do not flex enough to accomodate a person attemting to fix a leak by tightening further. This is also a common assembly error on the 9100 series control valves since they have an identical o-ring design. This particular company also noted they have had a statisticaly insignificant number of necks cracks on the 7000 valves. Like us, they have a nearly identical number of failures between the whole product line, and it is almost always on equipment we did not build.

Even if the date on the box says 3-2-2012, that is no guarantee that the valve body is the newest version. The valve bodies are mass produced and the time between molding and assembly could be several months.

If there were any real problems with the valve, we would not be able to sell as many as we do. It is still our best seller and is particualrly popular with the light commercial guys. The valve is bulletproof. Personally, I would have zero concern for the valve failing.

Hope this helps!

[FleckLander]

Thanks for the info. I wasn't concerned about the new mold so much, but about the possibility that someone has some 2 or 3 year old 7000's laying around from Mexico.

[ditttohead]

LOL, it would not surprise me.... the valve box does state where they are assembled, and their final assebly date. And anything built in 2011 should be fine.

The real issue with the Reynosa plant was less about QC, and more about product delivery times. The lead times, order fulfillment, etc went south, when the valves went south.

[Gary Slusser]

Thanks for the info. I wasn't concerned about the new mold so much, but about the possibility that someone has some 2 or 3 year old 7000's laying around from Mexico.

I still say a 2510 SXT is the best choice. The design has been around for decades and you never hear anything bad about it except it is a bit difficult to replace the seals and spacers without the special Fleck tools for it.. It's rock solid and usually works for 10-20 years without needing anything.