Recommendations for system

Akpsdvan said:

Mistake on my part for not looking at the start.
Running the well for only an hour after setting for some time might not give a good test of the water.
Drillers around here like to run the water for 24hours hard before a test is done so that the well has a chance to flush out of the old standing water from within the well and the ground feeding the well.

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The main reason drillers and real estate agents want the water run is to get a Coliform bacteria free test result. That usually not for the benefit of the homeowner because it gives them a false sense of security and not real time results.

Most residential well pumps can not draw down a well sufficiently to get fresh water into the well and to the pump. The pump would have to pump the recovery rate gpm plus enough gpm to pull the static water, the well's storage capacity, down all but to the pump's inlet. And all the water below the pump's inlet is always stagnant anyway unless the well is a screened well with screening below the pump. Pulling a rock bore well down that far can cause serious problems, including ongoing hard to cure water quality problems.

Akpsdvan said:

Either a bad ground or wire laying on copper can give blue green stain, the ph at the 7.1.... I myself would rule out any electricity on the copper before adding a neutralizer.
If the softener worked before, then replace with an newer one like the one that is there now.

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So far there is no blue staining other than on the floor in the basement under the copper water lines, and some under faucets. Otherwise there is no blue staining as evidence of copper tubing internal corrosion. The OP said; "The washer hose bib and the bottoms of some of the faucet assemblies is blue green and "fuzzy" We've been told it is a problem with the CO2 in the water.".

Ordered water softener

I ordered a 48K grain softener with a Fleck 5600SXT to replace my old 32K unit. I'm hoping it will take out all the iron. If I still have issues due to ferric iron, Ill order up the recommended Birm unit. Not going to worry about the CO2 as it appears the blue staining is all external and is condensation related only. Will also have the grounding redone. I'm also going to order up a new new 87 gallon well tank.

Thanks for everryone's input.

Sounds like a solid plan to me. Let us know how it works out.

woodguy00 said:

I ordered a 48K grain softener with a Fleck 5600SXT to replace my old 32K unit. I'm hoping it will take out all the iron. If I still have issues due to ferric iron, Ill order up the recommended Birm unit. Not going to worry about the CO2 as it appears the blue staining is all external and is condensation related only. Will also have the grounding redone. I'm also going to order up a new new 87 gallon well tank.

Thanks for everryone's input.

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Smart choice but I caution doing business with anyone that would suggest a softener and then a Birm filter for only .41 ppm of ferrous iron. Any softening resin will very easily remove much more than .5 ppm of iron.

Brown water occasionally

Gary Slusser said:

Smart choice but I caution doing business with anyone that would suggest a softener and then a Birm filter for only .41 ppm of ferrous iron. Any softening resin will very easily remove much more than .5 ppm of iron.

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Reviving my old thread...

Since installing the new water softener about 6 weeks ago, we have had three occasions where my wife goes to fill the bath and get brownish tint in the water. Most days it seems crystal clear. For what it is worth, the brown water has been after rain events but there have been plenty of other rainy days with no iron issues.

As quoted above the testing we did only showed .41 ppm of iron and .12 ppm of manganese. Note however that an earlier test, taken by mistake on treated water from the old system we replaced, showed .38 ppm of iron on the treated water.

What do you all think we should do next ?

Since it appears to be primarily in the tub, the tub spout is a very high volume fixture that can easily stir up the water heater. I would recommend opening the valve on the bootm of the waterheater tank to remove any built up sludge, dirt, iron precipitate, etc. This is supposed to be done at least annually. See what comes out of the bottom of the water heater tank. With any luck, a good purging of the bottom of the water heater tank may fix your problem. Another possibility is that if you ran untreated water through the plumbing fgor any length of time, you will have a layer of "stuff" iron, silt, etc on the pipes that the soft and iron free water will start to clean off of the pipes. This is most prevalent when you let the water sit in the plumbing for many hours.

Let us know what you find.

I'll mention to turn off the power to the water heater before you drain the heater down too far and burn out an element or the burner comes on.

I should also mention that many times the drain valve will break off when you go to open it or... it may not close all the way when you go to close it. So be prepared.

Agreed, the typical flushing of a water heater is a quart or two every three months as per the majority of the water heater manufacturers recommend, this would not require shutting down the water heater. For your situation, you may want to do an actual draining of the water heater. Please refer to your water heater instructions for exact detailed instructions on doing a complete cleaning. Good luck and let us know what comes out of the bottom of the water heater.

I've done a fair amount of flushing of water heaters and especially on water with iron in it.

I found that draining some water once in awhile doesn't do much as to cleaning the bottom of the tank except right at the drain valve.

The rest of the bottom of the tank stays 'dirty'.

So draining and then multiple flushes is the only way to go. Drain it empty, that's when most of the dirt will come out just as the water starts to dribble out the drain valve. Then shut the drain and run water in the tank at full force for a minute, shut it off and open the drain. Repeat until there is no more dirt.

Good advice, Gary. Getting all the junk out of a tank is difficult. Draining it first, then running some water under pressure thru the tank will knock a lot of junk loose. Just draining a tank doesn't really get much stuff out.

Also, woodguy, see my post about "Junk in water" https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?46815-Junk-in-water

In my case, lots of particles are coming out which I imagine are just stuff that built up on the inside of the pipes, and now are breaking free whenever I turn the tub full blast (cold water). And the same thing will happen in your water heater as the water is softener breaks up the old buildup.

woodguy00 said:

Reviving my old thread...

Since installing the new water softener about 6 weeks ago, we have had three occasions where my wife goes to fill the bath and get brownish tint in the water. Most days it seems crystal clear. For what it is worth, the brown water has been after rain events but there have been plenty of other rainy days with no iron issues.

As quoted above the testing we did only showed .41 ppm of iron and .12 ppm of manganese. Note however that an earlier test, taken by mistake on treated water from the old system we replaced, showed .38 ppm of iron on the treated water.

What do you all think we should do next ?

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woodguy00,

Another suggestion, determine the age of your water heater, if you can afford it and it's older than, say, five years old, you may want to consider just replacing it, instead of wasting your time cleaning it. The anode in a unit older than five years will probably need replacement anyhow. Size the new one for your family, customize it so it will last for many years. Buy one that you can add an additional magnesium anode or combo anode/hot water outlet to, replace the straight dip tube with a curved one to assist in flushing it in the future, replace the cheap drain valve with a full 3/4" ball valve with an attachment for a garden hose.

Here's a link : http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/water-heater-maintenance.html
I have no affiliations to this company.

I had similar water conditions and an old electric water heater when I bought our house. I bought a new base model A.O. Smith, I upgraded it using their curved dip tube, a full 3/4" ball valve, added a combo anode/ hot water outlet and replaced the existing anode with a segmented one because of my install location's height restrictions for future anode replacement. The chlorides in softened water will affect the longevity of the anode(s).

If your DHW heater is electric, is relatively new or you can't afford to replace it, drain it down completely, pull out the heating element(s), inspect them and replace them with high quality new ones if necessary, inspect the anode by peering through the port where the element(s) came out of, replace the anode if necessary. I used a garden hose with a pressure cleaner tip on it, to blast the junk off the walls and at the base where the buildup was the worst. Replace the drain valve with a good one that won't get clogged up with sediment when you do your regular drain down maintenance. Put it all back together and "sanitize" it using bleach (I could not find a link with directions on how to properly sanitize your DHW heater, you'll need to read up on it first).

Another suggestion, check the settings on your 5600SXT. It may be that the time between regens is too long. Other board members here are more knowledgeable than I am about softeners. You may want to ask them what the maximum time between regens should be. As I recall, 3 to 4 days between regens is required when iron and/or manganese (exceeding ? how many ppm?) is present. The brownish tint in the water may be because the softener's resin bed capacity has been depleted, or is close to it, and the higher flow rate of the tub valve is letting unconditioned water breakthrough the resin bed.

If you aren't, you should probably be adding a product like "iron out" to the salt in the brine tank on a regular basis, to maintain the health of the resin.

Good luck with your new softener

Excellent post with one exception: "The chlorides in softened water will affect the longevity of the anode(s).".

Softeners do not add any chlorides to the softened water unless they are not completely rinsed which would be an error in the rinse part of the programming or too high a salt dose due to mechanical problems such as a blocked injector or loose brine line connections or some other cause of failing to rinse all the salt water brine out of the resin bed during regeneration.

Anodes deteriorate due to electrical currents and/or some type of reducing bacteria in the water (all reducing bacteria are harmless).

Gary Slusser said:

Excellent post with one exception: "The chlorides in softened water will affect the longevity of the anode(s).".

Softeners do not add any chlorides to the softened water unless they are not completely rinsed which would be an error in the rinse part of the programming or too high a salt dose due to mechanical problems such as a blocked injector or loose brine line connections or some other cause of failing to rinse all the salt water brine out of the resin bed during regeneration.

Anodes deteriorate due to electrical currents and/or some type of reducing bacteria in the water (all reducing bacteria are harmless).

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Gary Slusser,

Thanks Gary, glad you liked the post. Thanks for clarifying about the chlorides and their removal by proper programming and maintenance. Are you saying then, that a properly set up and maintained softener will not add any more chlorides to the previously unconditioned water? I am probably mistaken but, I thought I had read that there are higher sodium and chloride ion levels in softened water which could effectively shorten the lifespan of a sacrificial anode because the anode would corrode more quickly than if it was used in hard water situation.

I'm really interested in this conversation/topic. I am currently (still) sizing a softening system for a client for whom I am also specifying an indirect fired DHW heater and I am concerned about the corrosive effects of chlorides on the indirect's composition (i.e. choosing to go with a stainless steel model versus a glass lined model using anode(s) for protection from corrosive elements). I started a thread here back on 5/24/12 titled "Water Softener Advice". I would appreciate your opinion also.

BTW, do you, or anyone else here, know if a Fleck 5600SXT records or has the ability to record the peak/max flow rate attained at any point while "in service"? Has anyone here ever used a flow restrictor, for a specific valve/fixture, to effectively prevent hardness breakthrough (from an unprecedented event such as more people using the home's resources than was anticipated when sizing a softener)?

If you are interested, the thread I started 5/24/12 in reference to the indirect DHW heater is on this site located at "Forum: Water Heater Forum, Tanks" and it is titled "choosing an indirect fired water heater".


woodguy00, it was not my intention to hijack this thread. Hope you are making progress figuring out where the brown water in the tub is coming from.

knowhow said:

Thanks for clarifying about the chlorides and their removal by proper programming and maintenance. Are you saying then, that a properly set up and maintained softener will not add any more chlorides to the previously unconditioned water? I am probably mistaken but, I thought I had read that there are higher sodium and chloride ion levels in softened water which could effectively shorten the lifespan of a sacrificial anode because the anode would corrode more quickly than if it was used in hard water situation.

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Sodium form cation (softener) resins do not use any of the chloride from the sodium or potassium chloride used to regenerate them.

All the chloride goes to drain. If sodium chloride is used, then two sodium ions are added to the softened water stream per grain per gallon of ion exchange. I can't recall the potassium added but I think it is somewhere near 7 ppm per gpg removed and again, no chloride is used or added.

knowhow said:

I'm really interested in this conversation/topic. I am currently (still) sizing a softening system for a client for whom I am also specifying an indirect fired DHW heater and I am concerned about the corrosive effects of chlorides on the indirect's composition (i.e. choosing to go with a stainless steel model versus a glass lined model using anode(s) for protection from corrosive elements). I started a thread here back on 5/24/12 titled "Water Softener Advice". I would appreciate your opinion also.

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Size the softener for the highest peak demand flow rate (gpm) plus a few gallons and that will prevent a problem of hardness breakthrough.

I did that for years using a Clack WS-1 that does record the max gals/minute daily and weekly and then the highest gpm ever IIRC. I had some customers tell me they came within a couple gallons of the SFR I told them the softener would handle but no one ever said they went over it except one guy. Come to find out that he bought a house with a softener with a Clack WS-1 and my name was on some notes in the manual. We spoke awhile and I got into fixtures etc. and I could not believe I sold that size softener for that house. So I asked who the previous owner was if he knew and he gave me a name. I looked it up in my database and he wasn't there. So I told the guy and he said "ya know, it looks to me as if he talked to you and wrote down a whole bunch of notes and prices with your web site and name etc. on it but here is an invoice from xxxx.com that I just found folded up in the back of the manual".

You can find the constant SFR gpm of different sizes of softeners at the link in my signature.

I would go with standard glass lined instead of SS. SS and chloride (and maybe sodium) do not play well together and if you have private well water, you probably will have some chloride (and sodium) in the raw water, and softeners do not remove chloride (or sodium).

knowhow said:

BTW, do you, or anyone else here, know if a Fleck 5600SXT records or has the ability to record the peak/max flow rate attained at any point while "in service"?

Has anyone here ever used a flow restrictor, for a specific valve/fixture, to effectively prevent hardness breakthrough (from an unprecedented event such as more people using the home's resources than was anticipated when sizing a softener)?

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I don't believe the 5600 does that. And I wouldn't use a flow control. And remember that no matter how many people, they can't use more than the number of fixtures that will be used at the same time.

Thanks for the ideas.

I need to have the boiler guy out for annual maintenence so will have him show me how to safely drain and flush the Weil-Mcclain indirect fired water heater. Since it is less than five years old I don't want to relace it. The manual says to relieve the pressure on the boiler side but I'm not clear how to do that. Also not clear what I need to shut down. Maybe best to have a pro show me when here.

woodguy00,

Determine which Weil McLain model you have. Plus, Gold Plus and Ultra Plus are tank-in-tank designs. I think they are manufactured by Triangle Tube. Here is a link to the W/M manual for these models. Page 20 has the maintenance info..

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multi...r_plus_indirect_fired_water_heater_manual.pdf

If it's the Aqua Plus it has a coil heat exchanger instead of the tank-in-tank design. It looks like they have improved the design of this model. I'm not sure, but I think the older model may have been either a glass-lined tank with an anode, or a stainless steel tank without an anode. Now the new model is stainless with a Mg anode! Just what I've been researching and looking for, without success, until now.

If you are interested, the thread I started 5/24/12 in reference to the indirect DHW heater is on this site located at "Forum: Water Heater Forum, Tanks" and it is titled "choosing an indirect fired water heater".

Maintenance info. starts on page 25.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multi...f/products/water-heaters/aqua/aqua_manual.pdf

You may need to call M/W (219) 879-6561 if you have the older model Aqua Plus, I could only find the link for the newer model's manual.

Just a side note, I know this should be posted elsewhere, I wonder why W/M is not adding an anode to the tank-in-tank design model? There is an accessory/aux. port on the top of the tank intended for use with a recirc pump, which could be used instead for adding an anode. I've asked Triangle Tube, but no one replied to 2 emails. I'm going to call both W/M and T/T today to ask why, again, and hopefully get an answer.

Best wishes for an easy, problem free drain down (drain up in this case, i.e. reverse flush, no drain valve at base) and clean out of your indirect.

woodguy00,

Sorry, I did not fully read your post and just now realized that you already have the manual.
Which model do you have?

knowhow said:

woodguy00,

Sorry, I did not fully read your post and just now realized that you already have the manual.
Which model do you have?

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I have the Plus 60 model.

I had the boiler guy here on Thursday and we flushed the hot water heater.

I thought the brown water issue was from the hot water side but spoke too soon. This morning I ran cold water for the dog bowl and had brown water. I checked the SXT5600 softener and the reading showed 2400 gallons. The brine tank had plenty of salt. As a reminder, my water test only showed .41 ppm of iron and .12 ppm of manganese. Why am I getting the occasional day with brown water while normally it is fine?

woodguy00 said:

I had the boiler guy here on Thursday and we flushed the hot water heater.

I thought the brown water issue was from the hot water side but spoke too soon. This morning I ran cold water for the dog bowl and had brown water. I checked the SXT5600 softener and the reading showed 2400 gallons. The brine tank had plenty of salt. As a reminder, my water test only showed .41 ppm of iron and .12 ppm of manganese. Why am I getting the occasional day with brown water while normally it is fine?

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Is that 2400 gals what is reset on the contrrol at the end of a regeernation or is the figure higher between regenerations? IMO unless you have a large family, and if you do, a 1/5 cuft is probably too small because 2400 gals sounds way too many and would mean you are regenerating only every few weeks but...

Is the brown water happening right after the regeneration at 2AM that morning?

What is your programing for the softener; what gpg of hardness and di you add in for the iron and manganese, what K of capacity, how many people, how many lbs of salt, how many gallons between regenerations?