Discussing tile methods

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SoCal1

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Hackney plumbing said:
According to the document thats posted drywall is not allowed no matter what the sealing method is.
obviously a few of you are not up to date and it shows.

Section R702.4.2 allows a glass mat gypsum backer in a shower.

Tile bonded directly to gypsum board was what the code was written to stop no matter how you read or twist it. Although the use of gypsum board with a bonded waterproof membrane is not referenced in Section R702.4.2 of the IRC, it may be allowed by code officials per Section R104.11 if it is shown to comply with the intent of the code and be at least equivalent to the options listed. One of the acceptable options called out in Section R702.4.2 is glass mat gypsum backers. A glass mat gypsum backer is comprised of a gypsum core that is laminated with glass mat face. The reason that gypsum-based product is listed in the code is because the glass mat face protects the gypsum core against moisture penetration. The installation of Schluter Kerdi over gypsum board produces an equivalent system per IRC R104.11. The gypsum core is fully protected against moisture penetration. IRC Section R104.11 deals with alternative materials and methods of construction and has been part the code from the beginning. It allows the flexibility necessary for a building official to accept any viable material or method of construction as long as it satisfies the intent of the code.


IRC R104.11 said:
"R104.11 Approval of Alternative Materials, Design, and Methods of Construction and Equipment:

The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material, design or method of construction shall be approved where the building official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code. Compliance with the specific performance-based provisions of the International Codes in lieu of specific requirements of this code shall also be permitted as an alternate."

http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICC-ES/ESR-2467.pdf
ICC Evaluation Service said:
ICC-ES Evaluation Report ESR-2467

untitled3.PNG


IRC P2709.2 said:
P2709.2 Lining required.

The adjoining walls and floor framing enclosing on-site built-up shower receptors shall be lined with one of the following materials:

1. Sheet lead;
2. Sheet copper;
3. Plastic liner material that complies with ASTM D 4068 or ASTM D 4551;
4. Hot mopping in accordance with Section P2709.2.3; or
5. Sheet-applied load-bearing, bonded waterproof membranes that comply with ANSI A118.10.

The lining material shall extend not less than 2 inches (51 mm) beyond or around the rough jambs and not less than 2 inches (51 mm) above finished thresholds. Sheet-applied load bearing, bonded waterproof membranes shall be applied in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.

as far as I'm concerned I approve gypsum board per IRC P2709.2, ESR-2467 and Schluter Kerdi Installation Instructions and the IRC R104.11 gives me that option. I'm not going to be hard headed and keep blinders on with new technologies out there. I will not allow or approve tile set directly to gypsum board or organic adhesives in a shower.
 

Jadnashua

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The ESR on Schluter products has a newer edition (they're not good forever), which essentially says the same thing, but John just doesn't get it. What may or may not be valid in Canada, does not mean that it isn't in the USA. Thousands of showers have been made over drywall with Schluter Kerdi and are as good today as they were when originally built. Regardless of the materials used, if you don't follow instructions, it can and probably will fail.
 

Hackney plumbing

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obviously a few of you are not up to date and it shows.

Look man theres no way you'll ever convince me that waterproofing drywall is better than concrete board on the wall and then waterproofing the concrete board.



You rock N roll how you want out in Cali,it's not a big concern of mine.....I was just commenting on the document.

NOT ALLOWED

As of January 1, 2008, per CRC, CBC all paperbacked gypsum board products such as “Green board”, “Purple board”, and “Mold Resistance board” is prohibited in shower and tub compartments and shall not be used as a backer for tile lath or concrete/hardy board.
 
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SoCal1

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I'm looking for something that i can staple "chicken wire" to, and then float over - neither of your suggestions will fit the bill.
As regards hot-mop, the pan is not the issue. I'm perfectly satisfied with a conventional pan liner ( but i certainly dont put down the hot-mop method, and think it good that the skill is still carried on).
Hi Tom,

I would consult with your local tile contractors, building inspector and waterproofing manufacturers in your area. HotMop is a tried, tested and approved method for me. A traditional pan liner is also good.

I would go with NTCA W231. cleavage membrane "tar paper" stapled to your studs, expanded metal corrosion proof lath, scratch "brown coat" and then do your final float. that is the best bet in my opinion.

You could also try running by them NTCA W222-09 one-step mud float using a gypsum board screwed to studs, tar paper and then expanded metal corrosion proof lath screwed to the studs, and then go with your one-step mud float. This way saves time waiting on the first scratch coat to dry and less mud to lug into the customers home.

NTCA W231-090001.jpg
 
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Justadrip

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johnfrwhipple said:
codes and inspectors are showing us the right way to do things.

You are correct John and SoCal1 has made a very valid point that gypsum board is an approved shower construction material and backed it up with good data (IRC R104.11,NTCA W222-09,ICC-ES Evaluation Report ESR-2467). If an inspector with his years in the field and knowledge of the subject states that it is a approved material then this should be enough to satisfy.

I have been a longtime lurker here and just felt a need to respond after reading this thread. Seems like a few here have a hidden agenda or are so closed minded that they cannot or will not accept other approved methods of doing things.

Thanks for reading...i will crawl back under my rock now.
 

Hackney plumbing

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You are correct John and SoCal1 has made a very valid point that gypsum board is an approved shower construction material and backed it up with good data (IRC R104.11,NTCA W222-09,ICC-ES Evaluation Report ESR-2467). If an inspector with his years in the field and knowledge of the subject states that it is a approved material then this should be enough to satisfy.

I have been a longtime lurker here and just felt a need to respond after reading this thread. Seems like a few here have a hidden agenda or are so closed minded that they cannot or will not accept other approved methods of doing things.

Thanks for reading...i will crawl back under my rock now.

Plenty of things are legal....codes are minimum standards. Just because its done to code doesn't make it the best way to do it....or even close to the best way.
 

SoCal1

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Just because its done to code doesn't make it the best way to do it.
Exactly my friend. that's why we (inspectors) use IRC R104.11 to supersede other codes.
It allows the flexibility necessary for building officials to accept any viable material or method.
I use it to allow that Kerdi Membrane & also the one-step mud job both over drywall. :cool:
 

Justadrip

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Hackney plumbing said:
Just because its done to code doesn't make it the best way to do it.

Just sayin that code approves it. Not that its the best way. The tone of this thread seems to be that gypsum material is not approved.
 

Hackney plumbing

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Exactly my friend. that's why we (inspectors) use IRC R104.11 to supersede other codes.
It allows the flexibility necessary for building officials to accept any viable material or method.
I use it to allow that Kerdi Membrane & also the one-step mud job both over drywall. :cool:

The code is not worth the paper its written on and your proof of it.. For every code that says somthings not legal another code and be brought up that makes it legal.

You can waterproof just about anything but that doesn't make it the right material to use. Drywall is a stupid choice to build a tile shower with.
 

Hackney plumbing

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In the showers that you approve that use drywall for backing material,how many of those waterproof both sides of the drywall?

IF there is a small leak from the plumbing...drain or potable water,what would suffer the most damage.......a shower with drywall as a backer or a shower with cement board?

Water will soak into the backside of the drywall and the whole shower will have to be ripped out. I've seen it Mr inspector...have you? One small leak and it soaked the entire back side of the drywall and started to mold and the drywall started to fall apart.
 

Hackney plumbing

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Stupid maybe,but approved.:)

Not according to the document that I commented on and was posted by johnwhipple for lathe and mud. But if a guy wants to use drywall it would be ok with me because it wouldn't be my shower and it would look great from my house even if it was falling down.

It would be approved if a guy wanted to pipe his whole house with sharkbites too or if he wanted to pipe a multistory building with sharkbite pushfit fittings. But in my opinion it would be stupid....but like you say...approved :)
 

Jadnashua

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The goal of any approved shower construction is to prevent water intrusion and maintain good integrity over its life. There are numerous ways to achieve this and many different approved materials. Schluter has tested, and independent agencies have verified that, when installed properly, drywall is an acceptable backing material because it prevents any moisture from getting through from the tiled, shower side. Just like drywall is a perfectly adequate backer material for tile in a dry area, it is just as strong (actually stronger with the sheet membrane bonded to it) when used in a shower with an approved sheet waterproofing material. Now, what happens behind it if you have a leak in the supplies is a problem with any shower. It's likely to rot out any wood, spoil any insulation and generally mess things up regardless of the tile backing material.

If you've never used Kerdi, you don't have a clue on what it's capable of.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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The goal of any approved shower construction is to prevent water intrusion and maintain good integrity over its life....

I would agree with that. Showers shall be built so they do not leak and drain properly.


...There are numerous ways to achieve this and many different approved materials....

I would agree with that too. It is important to have options since many tile and stone suppliers require modified thin sets and since Kerdi does not allow this it's nice to know you can use;

Hydro Ban
Red Guard
Aqua Defence
HPG
Hydro Barrier
Wedi
Jaegger
Noble Seal TS
Dal Seal TS
Noble Deck

...Schluter has tested, and independent agencies have verified that, when installed properly, drywall is an acceptable backing material because it prevents any moisture from getting through from the tiled, shower side....

Here is where you get into the gray area. Schluter paid someone to do a report and that report is handed in. The "Agencies" do not then retest the test reports. I'm sure Schluter could pay someone to approve Kerdi over cardboard. Remember Jim how much you like to talk about that kerdi box?

Just like drywall is a perfectly adequate backer material for tile in a dry area, it is just as strong (actually stronger with the sheet membrane bonded to it) when used in a shower with an approved sheet waterproofing material.

Here again your wrong. No drywall in showers. Man I can not believe how hard you push this poor building technique. If you must use Kerdi and for a miracle the tile company doesn't require modified thin set then hang some cement board or Green EBoard first. Why do you push the drywall Jim? What wreckless advice. I hope someone doesn't loose their home following your advice.



Now, what happens behind it if you have a leak in the supplies is a problem with any shower. It's likely to rot out any wood, spoil any insulation and generally mess things up regardless of the tile backing material.

And remember that the paper on drywall is an excellent mold source. Find a piece of cement board, green Eboard and drywall and place them in water over night. Then in the morning try and snap each. I bet you can snap only one piece. I bet only one piece grumbles away. That same piece would be drywall.

...If you've never used Kerdi, you don't have a clue on what it's capable of.

True again. If you also follow your advice you can make an almost perfect shower. If you forget about the drywall angle Kerdi can make a really good shower. If you don't want seams in your shower - which I avoid here in Vancouver use another membrane.

Any of the one's I listed will work for you and any tile choice.

Good Luck.

Jim you should remind people that you only built one code approved shower and I believe you mentioned you needed to debate with your inspector, just to allow it. That was years back and since they changed the rules. Remind people that you never worked in this industry and that your hobby is reading up stuff on John Bridge's site and then passing yourself off as a Kerdi expert on this one.
 
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Jadnashua

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FWIW, I have been to a two-day class at the training center affiliated with the TCNA highlighting the use of Schluter products...I think I have better knowledge of it than most people on what it can do and how it should be used. the people that tested the use of Schluter products (Ditra, DitraXL, and Kerdi) is a nationally recognized test agency...you saying that they would lie? It either passes or it doesn't...they say it passes, have retested it at regluar intervals (to maintain the certification) and it still passes. Drywall behind a waterproof surface is NOT in a wet area just like the inside of a wall around the window...yes, if the window wasn't installed properly, the drywall would get wet and probabnly damages, but they don't require cbu there. you could say the same thing about using it in any room in the house...the wall could leak, say around a window or other pipe intrusion, or from the roof onto the ceiling and into the walls, then it would be wet, there would be damage. Should you make all the walls and ceilings in the whole house out of cbu?

As to the inspector who had not heard about Kerdi...all it took was to e-mail him the certifications and approvals, and he did not have any problem with it at all - he did look at it maybe more closely than he would have otherwise just to see how it went together, but that is all.
 
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Rap

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Thank you so much to everyone who has taken part ( and is perhaps still ongoing ) in this discussion. I've learned a lot.
SoCal1, your posts were enlightening about the variety of installation possibilities, and the role of the inspector.

John Bridge, thanks for taking the time to reply and advise me. And thank you for all your past JBF good work, you are slowly becoming a national treasure in the Larry Haun ( God bless his soul ) mold.

Perhaps more inspectors ( like the guy in Tenn. (?) that Terry has posted) will now step-up and share that store of the knowledge of so many jobs that the average worker is not going to experience. It's a pity that Inspectors about to retire are not made to sit down and write a job history - have their brain's drained.

AAMOI ref leaks: contractor that i worked for used to get a chubby whenever water damage was revealed on a job: "tell the householder that this damage might involve scaffolding" as he rushed off a hefty change order.
 

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Schluter does not offer up a complete system like the setting material companies do.

Schluter specializes in the membranes. They do contract with one company to manufacture DitraSet to their specifications, but you can use any setting material that meets the industry specs (ANSI A118.1) and maintain the warranty as clearly stated in the installation manual's instructions.

Do you criticise Ford, GM, or any of the auto manufacturers for not making every part in their vehicle? They decide which ones they want to make, and have others fill in the holes with stuff that they make better or more ecconomically. Long gone is the original Ford that made everything they installed in their vehicles. The same is true in most industries. Take HVAC, how many a/c condensor units motors are made by the place with the name on the label...almost none. Vertical integration companies are not very common these days. And, for all I know, Some of the manufactuers of the products you prefer are made for them under contract. Personally, I don't care...as long as they work together, it's not an issue who actually made it.

You can chose to ignore the ICC-ES Evaluation report ESR-2467, dated August 1, 2011 (good for two years), or the TCNA approved, documented procedure for Kerdi that allows, as one backer material drywall, or you can put your head in the sand. Nobody says you HAVE to use it, but it is an approved method in at least most of the USA, regardless of what you say. What's allowed in Vancouver, I don't know, but don't foist your incorrect info on the rest of us.
 

Jimbo

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Mike Holmes makes Canada proud. We will assume that you are not one of the contractors he has to follow up on?
 

Justadrip

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johnfrwhipple said:
And my inspectors all say no.

Maybe your inspectors don't know any better? Or are they not up to date on things?
What about what SoCal1 posted? That's a lot of good facts supporting the drywall cause.He really seems to know his stuff. ...and he is an inspector.
 
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