what do I use for main water supply line?

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Fidoprincess

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The line from water meter to house was eaten by a tree so I am having to dig a new trench away from the tree and put down a new line to the house. The old line is a white pvc pipe that the water company said was for basic irrigation systems and should never have been used for a water supply line in the first place. Unfortunately they didn't tell me what to use instead but I have been looking at the flexible black line (not sure what it's called) and that looks so much easier to put in but it will meet up with the white pipe in the middle of the yard so I'm not sure you can hook the two together.

Right now, we are digging the new trench and will buy the supplies and have it laid out for the plumber to come and connect. We don't know what we are doing but have no money so this seems to be the best plan. We are in the SF Bay area so seldom get frost but are digging the trench to about 2' and have some sidewalk and fencing to go under as well. We have gophers but seldom have frost.

Can anyone tell me what is the best pipe/tube to use? Will the plumber be able to join that to the existing white pvc (I think they called it 42?) Oh, what a fun way to spend the holiday weekend but thanks in advance!
 
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Fidoprincess

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nevermind, after talking with both the plumber and the water company, pvc is what they use here in our area. I guess it's the cheapest and easiest to use if not the most cutting edge technology. I was hoping to use the black hose type of material so we'd only have to joints at the main and the house but it's hard to find here and very expensive compared to the pvc. I thought we could get all the supplies ahead of time and lay it out but the plumber said it's no big deal for him so he will come tomorrow, check out our trenches, measure and see what to get. Hopefully by this time tomorrow, I'll have water again. UGH, what a job. Just for your amusement, someone planted a messy monterey pine tree DIRECTLY over the waterline. The tree is giant as are the roots that cracked the pipe at the meter. The estimate for cutting down the tree is $10K! Tree wins.
 

Gary Swart

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You can use schedule 40 PVC, Replace the whole thing, do not even think about connecting to the old PVC. You don't indicate where you are, but a water line must be below frost line, and should be deep enough not to be hit by yard equipment.
 
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Hackney plumbing

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Schedule 40 PVC white stuff is acceptable. I suspect the poster has pr200 thinwall pvc for their water main. I would connect to it if I didn't have any money or skills.

I think they are in San Francisco area. We usually find them 12"-18" on the coast.
 
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Fidoprincess

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Thanks to both! Hackney is right that we are on the coast in the SF Bay Area. We were told to dig 12 inches in the areas no one walked (ie. bush filled hill) and 18 at the lawn but we did 2 feet just to be safe. It's rare for us to get any frost so close to the ocean. I guess that is what they are going to use-the sch 40 pvc. All of it will be replaced except the part right at the house is under the sidewalk so we will have to reuse about 2 feet of the old line. The trench is all dug and the plumber will come and lay the line tomorrow. Can't wait to have water! Thanks so much for your replies.
 

Fidoprincess

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One more quick question? The water company mentioned that we have high pressure here and we had the pressure regulator changed about 8 years ago but they tested it and the pressure is 100 instead of the recommended 55. It's about $100 more to the plumbing bill to change it out so is it necessary and should we do it now? Thanks again!
 

6t7gto

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My pressure went crazy. I bought a new regulator and installed it.
Took the old one apart and found a $.10 o-ring had failed. Now i have a spare regulator...should I ever need it.
If you have the time, disassemble your regulator and check it out.
david
 

hj

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quote; Took the old one apart and found a $.10 o-ring had failed. Now i have a spare regulator

When I remove and replace a PRV, the old one goes into the scrap bin, NOT to a "take apart area". There is NO prv which is worth my time to repair it, regardless of whether it is a ten cent "O" ring or not. If he did not use "rigid" PVC, what kind of PVC would you suggest, not the flexible PVC used for jacuzzi tubs, I hope? Fittings, such as 90s and 45s, are the weak spots in PVC water lines, and are where the majority of failures, (other than cracked male adapters which is a different subject), occur. I do not think any one, other than a homeowner or handyman, would install any "class" PVC for a main line.
 
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Hackney plumbing

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I do not think any one, other than a homeowner or handyman, would install any "class" PVC for a main line.

Hj there are literally hundreds of thousands of homes with sch 40 pvc water mains from the meter to the house. All done by professional plumbers and spec'd by engineers and approved by plumbing codes.

Let us go ahead and say millions of homes with pvc water mains.
 

Fidoprincess

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I guess 8 years is about the lifespan of the PRV then? It doesn't have a way to adjust it. I looked online and they run around $50 so hopefully he will replace it. It doesn't have connectors at both ends or I could just unscrew it myself. I just did a new hot water heater 2 weeks ago so I don't want that to fail from the high pressure. This turning the water off and on really highlights the high pressure. I was afraid the toilets were going to blow sky high!

He came out this morning and said the trench wasn't deep enough-grrr. Today, I have the ruler out. He said 12 inches where no one walks and 18 at the lawn but now wants it deeper where no one walks so we are digging again and crossing our fingers he will come back today.

The PVC is ALL they use around here according to the water dept guys. Some of the really older houses still have galvanized and are replacing it with the pvc as it fails. We lived here for 25 years and had this same line leak once before right at the meter so really we knew it was coming as the tree grew. Just never thought it woule be sooo bad to dig with all the roots. I hate that tree more than ever!

Thanks again for all of your help and advice! Have always loved how smart you all are when I have any plumbing trouble. I come here first!
 

mhr

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The PVC is ALL they use around here according to the water dept guys. Some of the really older houses still have galvanized and are replacing it with the pvc as it fails.

If you don't mind me asking, where in the SF bay area do you live? I'm certainly no plumber but have lived in both the east bay and south bay and I have only every seen galvanized and copper mains. I doubt we are talking the same type of PVC, but my tree's tear up the PVC used on my sprinkler system!
 

hj

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quote; homes with sch 40 pvc water mains from the meter to the house.

I said "class" PVC, (such as 100 and 200), NOT schedule PVC, (i.e., 40 and 80), which are two distinctly different items. What kind of trees do you have? Roots are repelled by copper, and even if they were not, it would take a HUGE force to squeeze a copper line. Although it MIGHT happen, I doubt that it occurs on a "regular basis".
 

Hackney plumbing

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quote; homes with sch 40 pvc water mains from the meter to the house.

I said "class" PVC, (such as 100 and 200), NOT schedule PVC, (i.e., 40 and 80), which are two distinctly different items. What kind of trees do you have? Roots are repelled by copper, and even if they were not, it would take a HUGE force to squeeze a copper line. Although it MIGHT happen, I doubt that it occurs on a "regular basis".

Hj theres no might to it...roots break copper water pipe all the time. All type trees around here from Oak trees to Magnolias and pine trees. Copper is no match for a root. The roots either grow on top or under the pipe and push it up or down as it grows until it breaks it or kinks it shut.

Take a look at this pic and tell me if you think these trees can break a copper water line. LOL Look at the size of the tree compared to the car.
 
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Gary Swart

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In reply to the PRV question. While I'm not a pro, I must say I have never heard of a non-adjustable PRV. The only ones I know of are adjustable. In addition to a PRV, you need a thermal expansion tank because PRVs have check valve that prevents excess pressure from being absorbed by the city main and results in the T/P valve on the water heater to trip. The PRV and expansion tank pressures are set to match. In order to set the PRV and adjust the expansion tank, you need a pressure gauge as well. Thermal expansion has been discussed numerous times on this forum so if you are unaware of them, you should research the past posts on the topic.
 

Fidoprincess

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Just popping back in to say the plumber never did come back yesterday and we were so sad and disappointed thinking he just didn't want to do the job. We've had that happen before and our "back up" plumber wasn't available until at least Wed. He finally called late last night and showed up here around 11 am this morning with all the supplies-yes, Easter morning with no extra charge for the weekend/holiday. All of us dug and dug yesterday, especially the kids, and we had a great clear trench for him to lay the pipe and it's finished now. Only took him a couple of hours.

We did all the hard parts of digging ourselves, the worst was the roots and going under giant cement steps. I finally have water after almost 4 whole days-whew, it was tough. The family are still out there working putting all the dirt and plants back in to the hole and good thing because rain is predicted for Tuesday and the rest of the week so we had good timing in that at least it wasn't raining since it happened. We'll throw some seed on the trenched lawn area and hope it sprouts with the rain.

We are south of Santa Cruz, in Aptos and our water district guys (and gals) are so nice. At one point, we had 4 of them here giving advice and one even "accidently" left the key so we could turn the water on and off at the meter to flush when needed. The pipe is the white pvc stuff and because of the terrain, there were way too many joints, in my opinion but it is what it is and didn't cost us $10K. I still don't know why we couldn't have used that black hose flexible stuff but this is what we have and hope it holds for another 25 years. Our giant tree looks similar in size to the pic posted. The trunk is about the same size and the roots are enormous. We finally had to go and get an ax to chop enough root away that was in the way of the new trench.

The plumber had to rush off for his Easter celebration dinner but he said he would come back soon (with the bill) and to check the pressure valve. Hopefully he will replace it if he can't adjust it. He said this model (Watts) IS adjustable but he said once they get to 8 years, they don't usually hold the setting.

We have had the worst luck with plumbers in this area and are lucky to find this guy through one of the water dept people. Depending on how bad/good his bill turns out to be, we could have a good bit of work for him since he is basically a contractor and can do electrical work too. I have a big job to do tearing out our old hot tub heater that involves reusing the electrical for new outdoor lighting and also cutting the gas line to the heater. All in all, it could have been much worse. I know we were probably required to get permits and have inspections...the whole deal..but I am just happy to have water and over the weekend no less! The few times we did anything that required permits, it always ended up costing us a fortune because hey, it's a 30 year old house but now we need to upgrade everything and anything the inspectors can see and the cost for the permits was astronomical as well. It's almost as if we escaped the bullet since we were right out front on the street drawing a crowd. (Some guy told us to throw bleach in the hole around the tree to kill it=what?! We'd just have to deal with cutting up a deal tree then! Crazy...)

The digging was really hard but saved us a ton of money! Funny too before this happened, I had a small leak in my fairly new glass waterfall faucet to the vessel sink. I had a replacement ready to put in thinking I could do it myself and all of the sudden, the leak is gone. I bet turning the water on and off so many times disloged some debris and it works great again! If I hit the lottery, I will cut this bad tree down asap but 10K is crazy expensive for us right now.

Thanks so much for all of your help! I really enjoyed reading all of your posts and learned a lot after searching for more info especially about the PRV and the expansions tanks. Nope, as far as I can tell, we don't have one of those either and I've looked everywhere! Will ask the plumber when he returns.
 

Fidoprincess

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Plumber came by today with the bill and checked the Pressure Regulator. Today it was at 80 so he'll pick one up next time he is in the area and the total bill including all supplies was only $230. I was thrilled after seeing people who paid $3500 and up. I guess the digging really paid off.
 

Gary Swart

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Sounds like you're making progress. The PRV will have a check valve built in which will prevent the expansion that occurs when the water heater operates. You water pressure will rise quickly to above 150 psi and trip the T/P valve on the heater. This is why you must have a thermal expansion tank installed between the PRV and water heater. You can try to get alone without the expansion tank, but be prepared for a mini flood from the water heater every time it heats water.
 
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