Washing Machine + Slop Sink + AAV

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boost2525

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Please save the speeches about how "an AAV is the lazy way out"... there is simply no way I can run a proper vent in this space.

That said... I've spoken with several "master plumbers" at the big box stores, and they all said something different. I won't have a chance to talk to my local officials for a few days and wanted to get started on a dry-fit mockup in the mean time.

Here is a diagram of what I'd like to do, what are your thoughts?
  • All lines at 2" PVC
  • Slop sink to p-trap to 45 degree street elbow to double wye
  • Washing machine to standpipe to p-trap to 45 degree elbow to previously mentioned double wye
  • Top of wye goes up to an AAV
  • Bottom of wye runs to cast iron via PVC bushing
Should I add cleanouts? If so, where? (above the wye, below the wye?)

I had one guy tell me the AAV won't work the way I have it set up, I had another tell me to use an AAV for each trap.

From what I can tell it looks a *lot* like the Terry Love approved setup in this thread.

washer_rough_b.jpg


Untitled-1.jpg

The double wye above is not legal. A double fixture fitting yes, a doubly wye, no.
 
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Jerome2877

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There's always a way to vent properly, its a matter of people not wanting to cut through ,floors or walls. Master Plumbers at big box stores? That Y is not the correct fitting for draining 2 fixtures, neither of them would be vented in that configuration.

abs_double_fixture.jpg

A legal double fixture fitting
 
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boost2525

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There's always a way to vent properly, its a matter of people not wanting to cut through ,floors or walls.

Thanks for COMPLETELY ignoring the first line of the post. Save the speech, I really don't care or want to hear it. AAV's are allowed by code - and I'm using one. Code advances, technology advances, you need to adapt.

That Y is not the correct fitting for draining 2 fixtures, neither of them would be vented in that configuration.

Why do you say that. Let's assume I added an AAV immediately off of the p-traps for both fixtures, and capped the top of that wye... how does that allow any more or less air into the system? In both setups air can be pulled in - preventing the traps from siphoning, correct?

Also, when I look at the thread I linked to - it's a vertical vent stacked on top of two 90's. I don't see how that vents properly, but this wouldn't? The only deviation in this setup is the 90's use the same short piece of pipe instead of stacking one on top of the other. My vertical space is limits me from stacking 2 90's like shown in that thread. The floor slopes up to the wall, and the slop sink is really low. Code says the washing machine drain can't be higher than the slop sink - which makes stacking 90's a no-go.

Also, why is the wye incorrect? In ABS they make a double fixture fitting which is two long sweep 90's back to back. A long sweep 90 is a y and a 45 without the joint.
 
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JohnjH2o1

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By using the Y and 45 you have created two S traps which are not allowed by code anywhere.

john
 

Tom Sawyer

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Thanks for COMPLETELY ignoring the first line of the post. Save the speech, I really don't care or want to hear it. AAV's are allowed by code - and I'm using one. Code advances, technology advances, you need to adapt.



Why do you say that. Let's assume I added an AAV immediately off of the p-traps for both fixtures, and capped the top of that wye... how does that allow any more or less air into the system? In both setups air can be pulled in - preventing the traps from siphoning, correct?

Also, when I look at the thread I linked to - it's a vertical vent stacked on top of two 90's. I don't see how that vents properly, but this wouldn't? The only deviation in this setup is the 90's use the same short piece of pipe instead of stacking one on top of the other. My vertical space is limits me from stacking 2 90's like shown in that thread. The floor slopes up to the wall, and the slop sink is really low. Code says the washing machine drain can't be higher than the slop sink - which makes stacking 90's a no-go.

Also, why is the wye incorrect? In ABS they make a double fixture fitting which is two long sweep 90's back to back. A long sweep 90 is a y and a 45 without the joint.



Your lack of understanding of basic DWV fitting application and your argumentative nature does not make for a cooperative audience. However, what you propose will not pass code anywhere. As stated above you have essentially created two S traps. In 38 years of plumbing I have NEVER once not been able to run a proper vent, nor have I ever or will ever use an AAV anywhere, furthermore since your washing machine discharges it's waste under pressure and an AAV only let's air IN, putting one on a washer is a total waste of time.
 

boost2525

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Your lack of understanding of basic DWV fitting application and your argumentative nature does not make for a cooperative audience.

Typed words convey no emotions, you're adding those yourself. I'm throwing alternatives out there in an attempt to understand why one is preferred over the other. Simply saying "that's code" answers the question, but it doesn't help me understand WHY that's code.

Something something something... teaching me to fish.

However, what you propose will not pass code anywhere. As stated above you have essentially created two S traps.

I guess I can see how it would create an s-trap over a short enough horizontal run - but how does that make the ABS "double fixture fitting" legal, and the wye with 45's illegal? They create the exact same configuration.

In 38 years of plumbing I have NEVER once not been able to run a proper vent, nor have I ever or will ever use an AAV anywhere,

Congratulations. It's code, I'm using one.

furthermore since your washing machine discharges it's waste under pressure and an AAV only let's air IN, putting one on a washer is a total waste of time.

This is true for the WASHER side of the drain, but I still have a slop sink plumbed in there as well - and that's going to need a vent. Correct?
 
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boost2525

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It doesn't look ANYTHING like Terry's diagram! TomSawyers remarks pretty much explain why.

It's identical aside from the fitting used where the horizontal runs meet the vertical runs. In that thread it's two stacked sanitary t's, I'm trying to reduce that to one fitting (due to limited vertical space).
 

Tom Sawyer

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It takes 4 years in an apprentice course which is about 600 classroom hours and another 8000 hours of OJT before most states will allow a candidate to sit for the journeymans exam. Do you really expect us to "teach" you the art of plumbing for free?

Sure, your AAV will vent the sink but how about the washer?

OK so I'll quit ragging on you and give you the answer. Get rid of the washer drain altogether and waste the washer into the laundry sink. Vent problem solved. Use a sanitary tee on the vertical stack.
 

boost2525

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Do you really expect us to "teach" you the art of plumbing for free?

Nope, all I'm asking for is a 10,000 foot explanation on why something will or will not work.

As an aside, I see this type of response *far* too much in plumbing forums. We get it, you spent a lot of time and money training to do what you so. So did I... so did MOST people. Stroll on over to my forums with a computer problem. I'll teach you how to fix it, how to prevent it, and why it happened. This way you'll understand what to do the next time you see it. I don't understand what it is about plumbing that gives people a superiority complex.

Sure, your AAV will vent the sink but how about the washer?

I don't understand what you mean by this.

OK so I'll quit ragging on you and give you the answer. Get rid of the washer drain altogether and waste the washer into the laundry sink. Vent problem solved. Use a sanitary tee on the vertical stack.

That's not going to work for me. The slop sink is my sanitary room (I brew beer). I don't want unsanitary laundry lines running through there - plus the distance is substantial enough that I'm not even sure the washer hose will reach.
 

JohnjH2o1

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All of your questions have been asked and answered. You have been given the correct way it should be done. Just because it doesn't fit your conditions is no reason to not follow codes. It appears that your going to do it your way no matter what is said by the professionals.

John
 

boost2525

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All of your questions have been asked and answered.

Hardly.

1. Why is a "Double Fixture Fitting" legal if a wye and 45's is not? UNANSWERED.
2. Why would an AAV for the sink interfere with the washing machine pump? UNANSWERED.
3. If vent lines were added to each p-trap (be they AAV or full vents) how is that better than the single shared vent? UNANSWERED.
4. Where should I put clean out adapters, above the horizontal/vertical meetings or below? UNANSWERED.

You have been given the correct way it should be done. Just because it doesn't fit your conditions is no reason to not follow codes. It appears that your going to do it your way no matter what is said by the professionals.

There's that superiority complex again.

I see slop sinks and washers hard plumbed all the time. Draining into the slop sink is hardly "the (only) right way" it's ONE of the right ways. There are ways to plumb this and still be within code. If you're not interested in helping - please leave the thread.
 
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hj

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fitting

quote; several "master plumbers" at the big box storesThere is NO WAY the terms "several", "master plumbers", and "Big box stores" can exist in the same sentence. Your first false assumption is that a double fixture fitting is the SAME as a double "Y". They are NOT. There is a subtle difference which prevents the fixture fitting from creating "S" traps, which is what a double combo, OR your double Y and 1/8 bends DO. The AAV is a one way valve letting air in to prevent siphonage, which BOTH traps need and your AAV will provide. The positive pressure situation occurs if the discharge is greater than the pipe can accomodate causing a pressure buildup, which will limit or prevent, the drainage and affect the sink's trap.


abs_double_fixture.jpg

A legal double fixture fitting
 
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Tom Sawyer

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Hardly.

1. Why is a "Double Fixture Fitting" legal if a wye and 45's is not? UNANSWERED.


Because a Wye puts the trap weir above the vent inlet.

2. Why would an AAV for the sink interfere with the washing machine pump? UNANSWERED.

It does not interfere with the washing machine but neither does it vent the washing machine trap.

3. If vent lines were added to each p-trap (be they AAV or full vents) how is that better than the single shared vent? UNANSWERED.

In your case, using an AAV on the washer is a waste of time, materials and money. See above.



There's that superiority complex again.

I see slop sinks and washers hard plumbed all the time. Draining into the slop sink is hardly "the (only) right way" it's ONE of the right ways. There are ways to plumb this and still be within code. If you're not interested in helping - please leave the thread.

The only correct way to vent a washing machine trap is with a vent. Otherwise you need to dump it into a laundry sink that is properly vented. In other words, there is no fast, cheap and easy way to correctly do what you want to do.
 

boost2525

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There is NO WAY the terms "several", "master plumbers", and "Big box stores" can exist in the same sentence.

=)

Hence the quotes around master plumber. Just because they write it on their orange apron doesn't make it true. I've learned to take whatever they say with a grain of salt.

Your first false assumption is that a double fixture fitting is the SAME as a double "Y". They are NOT. There is a subtle difference which prevents the fixture fitting from creating "S" traps, which is what a double combo, OR your double Y and 1/8 bends DO.

Ahhhhh haaaaaaa. I see it now. Charlette Pipe has a diagram of all the fittings and it looks like the DFF centerline sits in a different place then the double sanitary or double y.

The AAV is a one way valve letting air in to prevent siphonage, which BOTH traps need and your AAV will provide. The positive pressure situation occurs if the discharge is greater than the pipe can accomodate causing a pressure buildup, which will limit or prevent, the drainage and affect the sink's trap.

Thank you for the explanation, that makes sense. Hypothetically assuming the pump is super charged and blasts all of the water into the pipe in a short period of time... I'll have a positive pressure inside the pipe... but the AAV is designed to alleviate NEGATIVE pressure scenarios within the pipe. So the only place for the pressure to go is back up the traps? (i.e. "pushes" water backwards out of the sink / washer traps?)
 

hj

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??

When I was in charge of a university's computer department, I also had to troubleshoot the student's programs, and correct the professor's software so it would do what they wanted it to do correctly, among other things, but there was NEVER a computer problem which would create an unhealthy or potentially hazardous condition the way that mistakes in plumbing will. THAT is why we have an attitude when neophytes question our advice. But as to why the double fixture fitting would be illegal in your situation, I never said it would be, as long as the dinstances to the traps are within specifications.
 

boost2525

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there was NEVER a computer problem which would create an unhealthy or potentially hazardous condition

Agree to disagree. I have watched computer viruses wipe out life savings (by capturing your bank account login), shut down smart traffic signals (by disrupting network communications between the nodes), and destroy entire lifetimes of memories (by destroying your digital pictures).

I still don't treat neophytes with the attitude most plumbers have though.
 

Terry

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You can use a double fixture fitting for the laundry sink and the washer in many places, thereby using just one vent.

Or you can plumb it like my photo and revent at 42"

Some locations require a 3" line for the washer after the vent though. If it was West Coast, 2" would be sufficient.

Please save the speeches about how "an AAV is the lazy way out"... there is simply no way I can run a proper vent in this space.

I think this little statement set the tone. You were paying it forward and got what you expected. It is funny though. And yes, the construction culture is much harder then the software culture. You have a bunch of men carrying hammers around other men doing hard physical work; talking S*** to each other. It's real easy to get into a fist slamming discussion out in the field. What you see here is nothing! Nobody reading this is going home to his wife bleeding. We do have a sense of humor about it though. It's kind of edgy fun seeing how far you can push someone and still get your job done.


washer_rough_b.jpg
 
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Sbmmm

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You can use a double fixture fitting for the laundry sink and the washer in many places, thereby using just one vent.

Or you can plumb it like my photo and revent at 42"

Some locations require a 3" line for the washer after the vent though. If it was West Coast, 2" would be sufficient.



I think this little statement set the tone. You were paying it forward and got what you expected. It is funny though. And yes, the construction culture is much harder then the software culture. You have a bunch of men carrying hammers around other men doing hard physical work; talking S*** to each other. It's real easy to get into a fist slamming discussion out in the field. What you see here is nothing! Nobody reading this is going home to his wife bleeding. We do have a sense of humor about it though. It's kind of edgy fun seeing how far you can push someone and still get your job done.


washer_rough_b.jpg
-
Is there a minimum height number from the floor to somewhere on the CW trap?
 
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