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Thread: Twin tank: kinetico, culligan

  1. #16
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsap View Post
    Hi Gents,

    I would greatly appreciate yo advice here.

    I am looking to purchase a twin tank system to get a continuous flow of soft water.

    One thing I am really interested in is to set up a twin system in a way that regeneration happens at night rather then immediately, but tank swap to be immediate as soon as one tank is exhausted.
    I want this to avoid pressure drop if regeneration happens during a day. But I need a switch happens immediately to always have soft water.
    Exhausted tank must pass control to a new tank immediately but must wait till night to start regeneration.

    Kinetico twin systems regenerate immediately and cause pressure drop.

    I started looking into culligan twin units where it is possible to set up time when regeneration happens.
    However, I do not understand whether it is both swap and regeneration happens at a preset time or Exhausted tank passes control to a new tank immediately but waits for preset time to regenerate (what I want).
    culligan sale reps are confused here and tell different things.

    Please advise.

    Thank you

    / John
    Yes Kinetico and all other regular twins have a pressure loss and reduced flow rate when they regenerate a tank.

    Reading the above and the rest of your posts in the thread, I think you may want to look into a Clack Alternating twin using two regular softeners. It can delay regeneration as you want and you can get the no hard water by pass. The system has been on the market for a number of years.

    Here is a bit of information on it is done.Name:  clacktwin.jpg
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    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  2. #17
    DIY Junior Member johnsap's Avatar
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    Please advise whether twin 10" will be too large for 2 people.

    I obviously like to with higher diameter to reduce pressure loss but try to avoid channeling as well.

    Is twin 10" for 2 people will be okay or risky for channeling?

    I think we use one tank in one week or so.
    Is it okay for another tank to stay without water for 1 week?

    Or I should go with twin 9" instead?

    Thank you.
    Last edited by johnsap; 03-31-2012 at 07:44 AM.

  3. #18
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    I'm not a pro, just a DIYer, but will put forth what I think are some of the channeling issues. The "time" component would be for a softener that is in service. I think with a twin, one tank is in service and the other is in waiting.

    The other factor with channeling, is the GPM flowing through the resin. Higher flow disperses better than low flow. If you oversize for more GPM but then don't use the capacity, you increase the risk of channeling. It is not so much the number of people unless they are using water concurrently. It is more about how it is used WRT to the flow rate.

  4. #19
    DIY Junior Member johnsap's Avatar
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    but do I understand correctly that it is the same with a single tank as well and not related to twin systems?
    or waiting without water for a tank for 2 weeks can be harmful?

    Thank you

  5. #20
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    When a softener is backwashed, the resin bed is stirred up, so any channels that formed over time are no more. If there is low flow for a long enough time, water taking a path of least resistance may form channels and deplete the resin along the narrow channels. If you have herd of cows slowly moving along, they may follow one another on narrow paths. If you create a stampede, they will spread out and take different paths.

  6. #21
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsap View Post
    Please advise whether twin 10" will be too large for 2 people.

    I obviously like to with higher diameter to reduce pressure loss but try to avoid channeling as well.

    Is twin 10" for 2 people will be okay or risky for channeling?

    I think we use one tank in one week or so.
    Is it okay for another tank to stay without water for 1 week?

    Or I should go with twin 9" instead?

    Thank you.
    As long as the tank is regenerated every 7-9 days or sooner, and the softener was correctly sized for the peak demand flow rate needed, channeling is rarely a problem.

    And unless you've changed your mind and now are thinking of buying a Kinetico, the tank diameter is not a problem.

    When you find out what cuft volume of resin you need for the flow rate you need, the cuft volume dictates the size of the tank. A 10" tank gets you 1.5 cuft with a constant 12 gpm SFR. And if you think about channeling which is caused by low flows, a higher flow should collapse the channel because of the higher flow compacting the resin bed as the water goes down through the resin.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #22
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    A 10" tank has a recommended minimum flow of 1.6 GPM. The system will work fine at considerably lower flows, this recommended minimum flow is used when flow rarely varies. IE: pre treating a commercial RO system. As flow varies, the channelling issues are rarely a problem, especially in smaller tanks. Even a 16" diameter tank will typically do ok, (this is the maximum tank size I recommend for a residential application, and I prefer smaller tanks...) the 16" tank has a minimum recommended flow of 4 gpm. A little high for most residential applications, but certainly not a real problem for most people.

    These are "recommended" flow rates, used for constant flow applications. Varying water flow regularly like a residential application does will widen these recommended flow rates considerably. I am not aware of any company modifying these flow rate recommendations to better suit the residential market, but it should give you peace of mind regarding the "too large of a tank" idea that some companies discuss.

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsap View Post
    Please advise whether twin 10" will be too large for 2 people.

    I obviously like to with higher diameter to reduce pressure loss but try to avoid channeling as well.

    Is twin 10" for 2 people will be okay or risky for channeling?

    I think we use one tank in one week or so.
    Is it okay for another tank to stay without water for 1 week?

    Or I should go with twin 9" instead?

    Thank you.
    You really don't have to worry at all about channeling. I am not really sure where this concern comes from but there are those that raise false concerns on water treatment devices or technologies that have little basis in fact or practical application.

  9. #24
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Totally agree with Water Solutions . The real issue of channeling is when a system is poorly designed and the tank size is huge.. completely oversized for the application. A 10" tank is small, inexpensive, and works except in some very rare commercial application. We have seen companies, (many years ago) put in 10" diameter tanks ahead of very small ro systems, and this was a poor design choice because the water never exceeded a 1/4 GPM. The meter even had trouble with seeing any water, and the water was flowing so slow that it would find a path through the resin that was not optimal and the systems would not produce soft water consistently. The problem was solved by putting in a 6" diameter tank, getting rid of the meter, and regenerating the system weekly... I dont think this will ever apply to a residential application. I start to take tank size into account for residential applications when they exceed 14", up to 14", it has never come up as an issue.

  10. #25
    DIY Junior Member johnsap's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your replies.

    I will also appreciate your insights on piping to address my concern with pressure drop.

    I have 5/8 copper pipe which goes into the meter; smaller copper pipe out of the meter into 3/4 plastic, and 3/4 plastic into a softener.

    I have several questions:

    1)
    if my new softener has "1'' valve system" (does it mean it expect 1" pipe into it?), does it make sense to put a new 1" plastic line to it (or simply install through connector 3/4"->1" ?) ?.
    I feel like replacing 3/4" with 1" should give me better flow; however I am confused with my 5/8 and smaller copper pipe.
    Does it make sense to replace 3/4" plastic with 1" plastic since the softener takes it?

    2)
    I was thinking to install a sediment filter before the softener and was looking to get a Big Blue 4.5 X 20 Commercial Parallel Dual Filtration System:

    http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/p...on-System.html

    I like the idea that it gives better flow via dual parallel filters.
    But it has 1" intake.

    Would you recommend getting me such a parallel sediment system with my plumbing?
    Does it make sense to replace 3/4" plastic line with 1" plastic to fit?
    or Does it make sense to to have connectors 3/4"->1" for such a system or it will not lead to any flow advantages and is not going to help with pressure drop?

    I noticed there are single big blue filters with 3/4 intake on the market.
    But I did not find dual parallel 3/4 housings.

    Please advise and thank you in advance!
    Last edited by johnsap; 04-02-2012 at 08:11 PM.

  11. #26
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Flow rate is based on many calculations, one of the most misunderstood by non plumbers is frictional loss. basically, the more smaller pipe you replce with larger pipe, the less overall frictional loss you will have. Even though your meter is 5/8" it has a very short length so the total loss will be minimal. I have charts I can pull up tomorrow, but they are very long, boring, and highly detailed calculations that usually do not apply unless you have excessive water flow needs at your house. Simply put, try to minimize pipe lenght, and never put in smaller pipe than what you currently have. The primary consideration for pipe is velocity in feet per second. You should never exceed 9 FPS, and preferably you should stay below 8 FPS. It will not hurt to install a larger 1" line, you will probably not notice a difference either. Hard to say without extensive details about your plumbing.

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    Sediment filter... there is usually no reason to put one in. A softener acts as a sediment filter (poorly), and it is self cleaning during the backwash cycle. Do you have iron, sediment that is a real problem, or are you just wanting to install the BB filter as extra protection?
    As to the parrallel design, a single BB will give you more than you will ever need. If you have a legitimate sediment issue, I would highly recommend a backwashing system that requires almost no maintenance. A few companie offer softeners with backwashing media tanks stacked on top of thesoftener eliminating an extra control valve and it uses no more water than a standard softener system. Send me an IM if you are interested in a stacked tank design with sediment filtration incorporated, I know a few good companies that do that at a great price.

    A quick side not, check out the velocity chart, they are claiming 50 GPM for a 1" system... what would the velocity be at that flow rate? Way beyond the recommended.

  12. #27
    DIY Junior Member johnsap's Avatar
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    I am in a new construction area and notice some sand in water from time to time.
    Culligan guys mentioned that it is very hard to wash out sediments from softener tank.

    I was thinking to install dual parallel filters just to minimize pressure loss.

    thank you

  13. #28
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Correct, sand is difficult to get out since it is heavier than resin and will go to the bottom of the tank instead of backwashing out. If it just sand you are concerned with and not so much ultrafine sediment, check out thew lakos twist to2 clean filter. No replacement filters, ultrafast cleaning, high flow rates (almost zero pressure loss), and inexpensive. http://www.twistiiclean.com/

    Whichever way you decide to go, be sure to plumb a bypass around the filter in case of a problem down the road.

  14. #29
    DIY Junior Member johnsap's Avatar
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    Thank you for your reply.

    1)

    I do not understand this particular aspect with softener intakes.
    If a softener has 1" or 1.25" intake, does it mean I can benefit from it only if I have 1" or 1.25" pimping or if I have 3/4" pipes I will also gain advantage and it will allow me to reduce pressure drop?


    2)

    Can you please clarify whether it is a good idea for me to install a Parallel Dual Filtration System which has 1" intake.

    Does it make sense to replace 3/4" plastic line with 1" plastic to fit?
    or Does it make sense to to have connectors 3/4"->1" for such a system or it will not lead to any flow advantages and is not going to help with pressure drop?

    or is it better just to go with big blue with 3/4" housing without thinking about 1" piping?

    thank you
    Last edited by johnsap; 04-03-2012 at 02:11 PM.

  15. #30
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Parrallel dual 1" filtration would be important on filters that are highly restrictive. Carbon Blocks, or other medias that you would need longer contact time. Sediment filters are not particularly picky about contact time, and they have very high flow rates.

    Regarding pipe size, increasing your pipe to 1" is mainly a cost issue. It will lessen pressure drop and frictional loss, but without a detailed plumbing schematic, fixture count, type, etc. it is hard to say wether you would notice the difference, but, I would do it if it is not difficult to do.

    Take a look at the The Lakos Twist to clean 1", itwill give you a flow rate of 39 GPM, probably 5X more than you will ever need.

    I do not endorse, work with, or know anything about this link, but the price seems good, and I have used a lot of these filters, they are the best sediment / sand filter I have used, inexpensive, high flow rate, reliable, simple, and very effective especially as a pre-treatment to a softener of other backwashing filter system. http://www.*******************/lakos-...er-filter.html

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