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Thread: Twin tank: kinetico, culligan

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  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member johnsap's Avatar
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    Default Twin tank: kinetico, culligan

    Hi Gents,

    I would greatly appreciate yo advice here.

    I am looking to purchase a twin tank system to get a continuous flow of soft water.

    One thing I am really interested in is to set up a twin system in a way that regeneration happens at night rather then immediately, but tank swap to be immediate as soon as one tank is exhausted.
    I want this to avoid pressure drop if regeneration happens during a day. But I need a switch happens immediately to always have soft water.
    Exhausted tank must pass control to a new tank immediately but must wait till night to start regeneration.

    Kinetico twin systems regenerate immediately and cause pressure drop.

    I started looking into culligan twin units where it is possible to set up time when regeneration happens.
    However, I do not understand whether it is both swap and regeneration happens at a preset time or Exhausted tank passes control to a new tank immediately but waits for preset time to regenerate (what I want).
    culligan sale reps are confused here and tell different things.

    Please advise.

    Thank you

    / John
    Last edited by johnsap; 03-30-2012 at 03:31 PM.

  2. #2
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Are you running a large family?
    High hardness?
    High Iron?

    What you are looking at doing in my view is defeating the reason of a twin softener. The whole idea of a twin is to start cleaning when the tanks change.

    With a single it can be set up to clean between 12mid and 4 am.... when people are in bed and not using water.

  3. #3
    DIY Junior Member johnsap's Avatar
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    thank your for your reply.

    water is hard 40.

    I would not call this as defeating the reason since There still be continuous flow of salt water because tank swap happens immediately.

    A fresh tank will last for two day at least and I am asking only several hours till night time for regeneration happens for the exhausted tank (fresh tank is already in use and I want to postpone regenerating old tank).
    I do not want to experience pressure drop.

    We had a single tank before and experienced hardness leakage; thus my wife insist on a twin tank to always have soft water even at night time. She hated when pressure drop happens when she is taking a shower or watering lawn.


    -------
    http://www.culliganwater.com/residen...ners_guide.pdf

    As treated water is used, the Volume Remaining display counts down (in gallons) from a maximum value to zero or (----).
    Once this occurs a Regeneration cycle initiates immediately or delayed to the set Regeneration Time

    -------------

    Thus I was wondering is it both a tank swap and regeneration of exhausted tank happens at Regeneration Time or swap happens before and regeneration is postponed till Regeneration Time. or at least it is what I try to achieve.
    Last edited by johnsap; 03-30-2012 at 03:46 PM.

  4. #4

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    I see. But again, what is your line pressure? Can you describe your plumbing fixtures? Type of pump? Are you using 3/4" lines reduced to 1/2" lines to fixtures? I know a system that will not suffer from pressure lose to any noticeable degree depending on your plumbing size and pressure set up and still get high efficiency.
    Last edited by water solutions; 03-30-2012 at 03:42 PM.

  5. #5
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by water solutions View Post
    I see. But again, what is your line pressure? Can you describe your plumbing fixtures? Type of pump? Are you using 3/4" lines reduced to 1/2" lines to fixtures? I know a system that will not suffer from pressure lose to any noticeable degree depending on your plumbing size and pressure set up and still get high efficiency.
    +1
    I have to wonder where the bottleneck is. Most softeners don't use a whole lot of GPMs to regen so it sounds like the supply problem should be fixed. Is there any filter before the softener?

  6. #6
    DIY Junior Member johnsap's Avatar
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    Being honest, I am not a professional to describe all plumbing, but I have 1/2" lines to fixtures.

    I cannot describe the pump now.

    Efficiency it term of water and salt used for a softener is not really important for me.
    E.g. I could switch a tank earlier than needed.
    Thus now I manually reduced volume for a unit to regenerate earlier at night to avoid hardness leakage and the problem is to use water at night that happens sometimes.

    My main concern is continuous soft water and no noticeable pressure drop since some of my neighbors with Kinetico complains about it.
    Did you experience similar Kinetico issue?

    I have been reading through a new Culligan HE twin tank system (Global) manual and am confused regarding what the control actually allows (not even sure if it can work with delayed settings)

    http://culligansocal.com/download/ma...efficiency.pdf
    Last edited by johnsap; 03-30-2012 at 03:59 PM.

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    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    With the 1/2 lines , I would say that is most if not all of the real problem and til that is changed, any thing that you put in to treat the water is going to cut down on the pressure and flow rate.

  8. #8
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    The Fleck SXT control does have the clean now and delayed and day over ride.. It might be possible to set the programing up so that it cleans at X time after the tank change, but I my self have never had the reason to do so for a twin set up.

    Now the new Culligan use of the Fleck 7000 for the twin set up might work, but not sure about what they are doing for that.

  9. #9

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    What are your water conditions, especially hardness and iron? Have you had your water tested yet? You are on well water? Submersible pump with pressure tank? Do you know what your high/low line pressure is?

    You won't really be able to get a twin tank that is set to regenerate at night unless you go to sleep with the water running. Not really sure where you got the concern about pressure drop during regeneration, but that is very rarely a problem. Do you have some unusual household water usage, appliances or fixtures? There are some twin-tank systems that are able to provide very high flow rates. If you set up an electric twin to automatically regenerate at night or during no-water usage, then you are sacrificing efficiency and the whole point of the twin-tank design.

  10. #10
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsap View Post
    Hi Gents,

    I would greatly appreciate yo advice here.

    I am looking to purchase a twin tank system to get a continuous flow of soft water.

    One thing I am really interested in is to set up a twin system in a way that regeneration happens at night rather then immediately, but tank swap to be immediate as soon as one tank is exhausted.
    I want this to avoid pressure drop if regeneration happens during a day. But I need a switch happens immediately to always have soft water.
    Exhausted tank must pass control to a new tank immediately but must wait till night to start regeneration.

    Kinetico twin systems regenerate immediately and cause pressure drop.

    I started looking into culligan twin units where it is possible to set up time when regeneration happens.
    However, I do not understand whether it is both swap and regeneration happens at a preset time or Exhausted tank passes control to a new tank immediately but waits for preset time to regenerate (what I want).
    culligan sale reps are confused here and tell different things.

    Please advise.

    Thank you

    / John
    Yes Kinetico and all other regular twins have a pressure loss and reduced flow rate when they regenerate a tank.

    Reading the above and the rest of your posts in the thread, I think you may want to look into a Clack Alternating twin using two regular softeners. It can delay regeneration as you want and you can get the no hard water by pass. The system has been on the market for a number of years.

    Here is a bit of information on it is done.Name:  clacktwin.jpg
Views: 275
Size:  58.9 KB
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    DIY Junior Member johnsap's Avatar
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    Please advise whether twin 10" will be too large for 2 people.

    I obviously like to with higher diameter to reduce pressure loss but try to avoid channeling as well.

    Is twin 10" for 2 people will be okay or risky for channeling?

    I think we use one tank in one week or so.
    Is it okay for another tank to stay without water for 1 week?

    Or I should go with twin 9" instead?

    Thank you.
    Last edited by johnsap; 03-31-2012 at 07:44 AM.

  12. #12
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    I'm not a pro, just a DIYer, but will put forth what I think are some of the channeling issues. The "time" component would be for a softener that is in service. I think with a twin, one tank is in service and the other is in waiting.

    The other factor with channeling, is the GPM flowing through the resin. Higher flow disperses better than low flow. If you oversize for more GPM but then don't use the capacity, you increase the risk of channeling. It is not so much the number of people unless they are using water concurrently. It is more about how it is used WRT to the flow rate.

  13. #13
    DIY Junior Member johnsap's Avatar
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    but do I understand correctly that it is the same with a single tank as well and not related to twin systems?
    or waiting without water for a tank for 2 weeks can be harmful?

    Thank you

  14. #14
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    When a softener is backwashed, the resin bed is stirred up, so any channels that formed over time are no more. If there is low flow for a long enough time, water taking a path of least resistance may form channels and deplete the resin along the narrow channels. If you have herd of cows slowly moving along, they may follow one another on narrow paths. If you create a stampede, they will spread out and take different paths.

  15. #15
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsap View Post
    Please advise whether twin 10" will be too large for 2 people.

    I obviously like to with higher diameter to reduce pressure loss but try to avoid channeling as well.

    Is twin 10" for 2 people will be okay or risky for channeling?

    I think we use one tank in one week or so.
    Is it okay for another tank to stay without water for 1 week?

    Or I should go with twin 9" instead?

    Thank you.
    As long as the tank is regenerated every 7-9 days or sooner, and the softener was correctly sized for the peak demand flow rate needed, channeling is rarely a problem.

    And unless you've changed your mind and now are thinking of buying a Kinetico, the tank diameter is not a problem.

    When you find out what cuft volume of resin you need for the flow rate you need, the cuft volume dictates the size of the tank. A 10" tank gets you 1.5 cuft with a constant 12 gpm SFR. And if you think about channeling which is caused by low flows, a higher flow should collapse the channel because of the higher flow compacting the resin bed as the water goes down through the resin.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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