ditttohead
Water systems designer, R&D
Update:
I got some more 5800SXT's in and the minor issues have been worked out. The motor cycling has been corrected and the valve exhibits almost no water hammer now. The plastic piece that holds the transformer connector in is much better so the system can now be unplugged without the plastic piece popping out. I have not done any real long term testing but the build quality of the seal and spacer stack is classic Fleck, and the kit from the first valve I installed looks brand new and I see no problems that should arise. The revised programming is much "tighter", the valve cycles to any posistion in under 1 second. Another feature I forgot to mention was the additional servicability offerd by this valve. The optical sensor is not board mounted so it is replaceable should it ever fail, this may also reduce the board cost should it ever need to be replaced. Valve cycling noise is also almost non existent since it cycles so quickly, the previous board I had took a few seconds to find its position.
The 5800SXT is looking highly polished for a new valve. Even the new cover has a nicer textured finsh than the original "shiny" surface. Only time will tell if this valve will be the next best seller from Fleck. So far, it is looking like it will be.
Well, I installed my first 5800SXT today. For those who have been waiting, I will give it a quick review. This particular valve is of course, a sample valve, not available to the public for a short amount of time.
First impression, excellent build quality, based on the Pro-Flo/ 5000 controller, it is a modernized version of the control it is based on. It uses the 5000/ProFlo brine system and drain system. The main body appears very similar as well.
The powerhead is completely modernized. Those who remember the original 5000 electromechanical with the motor with a one way bearing that would overheat, fail, and seize causing massive problems will be relieved that Fleck/Pentair has greatly simpified the design. It now uses a 12 volt DC drive with an electronic only design, similar to the WS1. The vale is as simple, if not easier to take apart than the WS1. It took me no more than 30 seconds to tear apart the entire powerhead. It is a snap together design. The power cord connector needs to have the mold tweaked a bit due to the plastic piece coming out when I pulled the power cord from the head. This a a minor issue that I am sure will be resolved easily and quickly. The SXT controler is nearly identical programming that we are all familiar with. The sample I installed had a .12 BLFC, not normal, but simple to program the refill. If you can use a calculator, and have 20 seconds to hit a few keys, this is not an issue. I installed the 5800 on a 2.5 Cubic foot unit today in a 16" diameter softener tank with a 7" diameter KDF85 stacked tank design. This required a 55 minute brine refill time. The optical sensor is similar to the 7000SXT, bulletproof. It is different in that it is not attached to the board so alignment is not an issue. A nice change was the homing. It appears to home every time it cycles unlike the 7000SXT. I intentianally moved the gears several times to try to get it "out of sync" with no luck. Like the Clack, it syncronizes regularly so their is no need to syncronize it manually. Unlike the Clack, it does not simply jam itself to find home. The encoder gear has a simlar open and closed section for the optical sensor to know where it is. A full 360 degree cycle takes approximately 2 seconds, so the valve is able to verify its position in 2 seconds every time the valve changes cycles. It also has a single backwash, double backwash, upflow, fill first, AIO, etc options already programmed in to the SXT controller. Since this is a "sample valve" I did not test every program to confirm their full fuctionality yet. I will do this on a full rlease version. This shows us what will likely be available when this product becomes a standard control in the Fleck product line. An AIO version would be a welcome product ever since the 7000AIO was only available for a very short amount of time. Well see if Pentair releases this option in the future.
Programming took a minute to complete, and the installation is classic Fleck. The valve uses either the mini sandwich turbine common on the 2510, 5600, 9100 and 5000/Proflo series of valves, or the older style electronic impeller meter. We used the sandwich design today for our install. We also opted for the plastic bypass and the 3/4" MNPT plastic adapter with Falcon 3/4" x 12" stainless flex lines to simplify installation and to give the system a little extra safety due to the very tall stacked tank design. Tanks will grow and shrink as water pressure rises and drops. Over time, this can cause neck failures, and on occasion, a valve may fail regardless of manufacture if some flexibility is not left in the pipe system. The 5800SXT uses the same time proven 5600 bypass and plumbing connectors. The drain is the same as the 5000, proFlo, 2510 controller, and the standard set-up will accomodate up tp 7 GPM backwash buttons. Optional backwash flow control assemblies will accomodate much higher backwash rates.
The good, the bad, and the ugly.
The good: the basic design feels like it is trustworthy on its first generation. It relies on modernizing the motor and transformer. 12 volt DC drives allow for reverse bi-directional rotation of the piston, higher speed cycling, and will likely meet energy efficiency standards that many states have implemented. The seal kit is a stacked one piece design which should make rebuilding it a little easier. This is a "neat" feature, but as we know, rebuilding a Fleck valve is such a rarity that it is not that big of a time saver. The seal and spacer stack uses the same high quality material that we are familiar with. Highly resistant to premature wear, strong and durable. The flow rate and backwash rates are much higher than the 5600 series control valves. Anybody who is familiar with a Fleck will find themselves at home with this valve. The SXT controls are beautifully backlit with a blue LED, and the cover has a very modern look to it. The overall fit and finish of the "sample" valve is more refined than any "sample" valve I have ever seen. Time will tell if it as good as I hope it will be. The LED displays viewing angle is straight on, or from above. The unit we installed today was difficult to view the display without standing on a step ladder since we were looking up at the valve. The LEd itself is angled slightly up for better viewing for most installations. In our application, this was a drawback, but it is the same with every valve we have installed on our test units. We try to push the valves during our testing to find the potential problems. Nothing unusual came up during our testing of this contol. It will be available in the "LXT" ultra simple programming version, with non adjustable cycles similar to the standard WS1, the popular SXT with extremely flexible and detailed programming capabilities, and it appears it will also be available in the XTR version as well. This includes output relays for chemical pumps based on the meter or other applications as well as highly detailed diagnostics, totalizer, etc...
The Bad: During my testing, the valve cycles very fast between cycles, maybe too fast. A full 360 degree rotation of the piston takes approximately 2-3 seconds, faster than any piston valve I have tested. Our test system was installed in a way to push the unit to the maximum ability. With a 3/4" feed line, and a high backwash rate of 7 GPM, the water hammer between cycles is definetly noticable. The old AC drive cycles very slowly, a loud whine was noticable between cycles. The new DC drive cycles so much faster that it sounds like an Autotrol, or an erie 541 when it goes between cycles. This is probably caused by the high speed drive combined with the high backwash rate of this particular installation. This is not a typical unit and was specifically designed to expose any potential shortcomings of a system. It is important to note that the Clack WS1, Autotrol, and other valves have a simlar issue due to their quick cycling or sudden cycle changes as well. The slow cycle systems, 5600SXT, 7000SXT, etc. due not have any hammer issue, just a loud whine as they cycle. This is not a major problem just a symptom that may come up on a rare occasion when the system, the softener, and the existing plumbing, are pushed to the max. When we lowered the flow control to 2.4 GPM during our testing, the water hammer dropped significanlty. The motor on this valve is extremely fast, do not have your finger near any of the gears or other moving parts otherwise you may be in for some pain!
The Ugly: The valve is not NEMA rated like the 7000 series, and the flow rate is not as good. The transformer plug connector came out when we unplugged it from the valve (simple fix for Pentair, minor adjustment in the mold), loud when it cycles, similar to the WS1. .12 GPM, .37 lbs salt per minute? Not a big deal if you know how to use a calculator or are extremely good at doing math in your head. Since almost everyone has a smartphone on them which includes a calculator as a standard feature, I will let this one slide. If it were ten years ago, this would be an issue.
I would give this valve a rating of 8.5/10. This could go much higher when we see the price. If it costs less than a 5600SXT, then we have a huge hit on our hands, a valve that will compete with the cheap knockoffs from China, and blow them out of the water. If it costs more than the 5600SXT, then it will be a success, just no where near as big as it could have been. This valve will certainly not dethrone the 7000SXT as the best medium-large residential valve available on the market, but it will make an excellent alternative and could dethrone the 5600SXT and 5000/ProFlo valves for the small to medium residential market.
If Pentair can get set some rules for this valve so it is not butchered by online companies, then it will definetly give Clack a run for its money for the dealer market.
I will post pictures of the installation in a day or two.
I got some more 5800SXT's in and the minor issues have been worked out. The motor cycling has been corrected and the valve exhibits almost no water hammer now. The plastic piece that holds the transformer connector in is much better so the system can now be unplugged without the plastic piece popping out. I have not done any real long term testing but the build quality of the seal and spacer stack is classic Fleck, and the kit from the first valve I installed looks brand new and I see no problems that should arise. The revised programming is much "tighter", the valve cycles to any posistion in under 1 second. Another feature I forgot to mention was the additional servicability offerd by this valve. The optical sensor is not board mounted so it is replaceable should it ever fail, this may also reduce the board cost should it ever need to be replaced. Valve cycling noise is also almost non existent since it cycles so quickly, the previous board I had took a few seconds to find its position.
The 5800SXT is looking highly polished for a new valve. Even the new cover has a nicer textured finsh than the original "shiny" surface. Only time will tell if this valve will be the next best seller from Fleck. So far, it is looking like it will be.
Well, I installed my first 5800SXT today. For those who have been waiting, I will give it a quick review. This particular valve is of course, a sample valve, not available to the public for a short amount of time.
First impression, excellent build quality, based on the Pro-Flo/ 5000 controller, it is a modernized version of the control it is based on. It uses the 5000/ProFlo brine system and drain system. The main body appears very similar as well.
The powerhead is completely modernized. Those who remember the original 5000 electromechanical with the motor with a one way bearing that would overheat, fail, and seize causing massive problems will be relieved that Fleck/Pentair has greatly simpified the design. It now uses a 12 volt DC drive with an electronic only design, similar to the WS1. The vale is as simple, if not easier to take apart than the WS1. It took me no more than 30 seconds to tear apart the entire powerhead. It is a snap together design. The power cord connector needs to have the mold tweaked a bit due to the plastic piece coming out when I pulled the power cord from the head. This a a minor issue that I am sure will be resolved easily and quickly. The SXT controler is nearly identical programming that we are all familiar with. The sample I installed had a .12 BLFC, not normal, but simple to program the refill. If you can use a calculator, and have 20 seconds to hit a few keys, this is not an issue. I installed the 5800 on a 2.5 Cubic foot unit today in a 16" diameter softener tank with a 7" diameter KDF85 stacked tank design. This required a 55 minute brine refill time. The optical sensor is similar to the 7000SXT, bulletproof. It is different in that it is not attached to the board so alignment is not an issue. A nice change was the homing. It appears to home every time it cycles unlike the 7000SXT. I intentianally moved the gears several times to try to get it "out of sync" with no luck. Like the Clack, it syncronizes regularly so their is no need to syncronize it manually. Unlike the Clack, it does not simply jam itself to find home. The encoder gear has a simlar open and closed section for the optical sensor to know where it is. A full 360 degree cycle takes approximately 2 seconds, so the valve is able to verify its position in 2 seconds every time the valve changes cycles. It also has a single backwash, double backwash, upflow, fill first, AIO, etc options already programmed in to the SXT controller. Since this is a "sample valve" I did not test every program to confirm their full fuctionality yet. I will do this on a full rlease version. This shows us what will likely be available when this product becomes a standard control in the Fleck product line. An AIO version would be a welcome product ever since the 7000AIO was only available for a very short amount of time. Well see if Pentair releases this option in the future.
Programming took a minute to complete, and the installation is classic Fleck. The valve uses either the mini sandwich turbine common on the 2510, 5600, 9100 and 5000/Proflo series of valves, or the older style electronic impeller meter. We used the sandwich design today for our install. We also opted for the plastic bypass and the 3/4" MNPT plastic adapter with Falcon 3/4" x 12" stainless flex lines to simplify installation and to give the system a little extra safety due to the very tall stacked tank design. Tanks will grow and shrink as water pressure rises and drops. Over time, this can cause neck failures, and on occasion, a valve may fail regardless of manufacture if some flexibility is not left in the pipe system. The 5800SXT uses the same time proven 5600 bypass and plumbing connectors. The drain is the same as the 5000, proFlo, 2510 controller, and the standard set-up will accomodate up tp 7 GPM backwash buttons. Optional backwash flow control assemblies will accomodate much higher backwash rates.
The good, the bad, and the ugly.
The good: the basic design feels like it is trustworthy on its first generation. It relies on modernizing the motor and transformer. 12 volt DC drives allow for reverse bi-directional rotation of the piston, higher speed cycling, and will likely meet energy efficiency standards that many states have implemented. The seal kit is a stacked one piece design which should make rebuilding it a little easier. This is a "neat" feature, but as we know, rebuilding a Fleck valve is such a rarity that it is not that big of a time saver. The seal and spacer stack uses the same high quality material that we are familiar with. Highly resistant to premature wear, strong and durable. The flow rate and backwash rates are much higher than the 5600 series control valves. Anybody who is familiar with a Fleck will find themselves at home with this valve. The SXT controls are beautifully backlit with a blue LED, and the cover has a very modern look to it. The overall fit and finish of the "sample" valve is more refined than any "sample" valve I have ever seen. Time will tell if it as good as I hope it will be. The LED displays viewing angle is straight on, or from above. The unit we installed today was difficult to view the display without standing on a step ladder since we were looking up at the valve. The LEd itself is angled slightly up for better viewing for most installations. In our application, this was a drawback, but it is the same with every valve we have installed on our test units. We try to push the valves during our testing to find the potential problems. Nothing unusual came up during our testing of this contol. It will be available in the "LXT" ultra simple programming version, with non adjustable cycles similar to the standard WS1, the popular SXT with extremely flexible and detailed programming capabilities, and it appears it will also be available in the XTR version as well. This includes output relays for chemical pumps based on the meter or other applications as well as highly detailed diagnostics, totalizer, etc...
The Bad: During my testing, the valve cycles very fast between cycles, maybe too fast. A full 360 degree rotation of the piston takes approximately 2-3 seconds, faster than any piston valve I have tested. Our test system was installed in a way to push the unit to the maximum ability. With a 3/4" feed line, and a high backwash rate of 7 GPM, the water hammer between cycles is definetly noticable. The old AC drive cycles very slowly, a loud whine was noticable between cycles. The new DC drive cycles so much faster that it sounds like an Autotrol, or an erie 541 when it goes between cycles. This is probably caused by the high speed drive combined with the high backwash rate of this particular installation. This is not a typical unit and was specifically designed to expose any potential shortcomings of a system. It is important to note that the Clack WS1, Autotrol, and other valves have a simlar issue due to their quick cycling or sudden cycle changes as well. The slow cycle systems, 5600SXT, 7000SXT, etc. due not have any hammer issue, just a loud whine as they cycle. This is not a major problem just a symptom that may come up on a rare occasion when the system, the softener, and the existing plumbing, are pushed to the max. When we lowered the flow control to 2.4 GPM during our testing, the water hammer dropped significanlty. The motor on this valve is extremely fast, do not have your finger near any of the gears or other moving parts otherwise you may be in for some pain!
The Ugly: The valve is not NEMA rated like the 7000 series, and the flow rate is not as good. The transformer plug connector came out when we unplugged it from the valve (simple fix for Pentair, minor adjustment in the mold), loud when it cycles, similar to the WS1. .12 GPM, .37 lbs salt per minute? Not a big deal if you know how to use a calculator or are extremely good at doing math in your head. Since almost everyone has a smartphone on them which includes a calculator as a standard feature, I will let this one slide. If it were ten years ago, this would be an issue.
I would give this valve a rating of 8.5/10. This could go much higher when we see the price. If it costs less than a 5600SXT, then we have a huge hit on our hands, a valve that will compete with the cheap knockoffs from China, and blow them out of the water. If it costs more than the 5600SXT, then it will be a success, just no where near as big as it could have been. This valve will certainly not dethrone the 7000SXT as the best medium-large residential valve available on the market, but it will make an excellent alternative and could dethrone the 5600SXT and 5000/ProFlo valves for the small to medium residential market.
If Pentair can get set some rules for this valve so it is not butchered by online companies, then it will definetly give Clack a run for its money for the dealer market.
I will post pictures of the installation in a day or two.
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