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Thread: Resin-Tech CG8-BL vs. CGS-BL

  1. #16
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FleckLander View Post
    Thanks for the info. I wasn't concerned about the new mold so much, but about the possibility that someone has some 2 or 3 year old 7000's laying around from Mexico.
    The control valve will ship to the Fleck distributor in the described box but, when the online dealer orders it, the valve may very well be taken out of the box and packed in the salt tank to reduce shipping costs and ship the product to the online dealer's customer. Or, some distributors will install the valve temporarily on the resin tank and box them together and ship it that way to the online dealer's customer. That's because the salt tank usually ships based on the size of the box, usually considered by UPS as over sized Class 3 or something like that as if it weighs IIRC something like 90 lbs. So the distributor loads it up with everything they can.
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    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  2. #17
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    The valves have date stamped information on them to indicate the date of manufacture, these molded components will usually ship from the assembler within 4-6 months to the distibutors, and the distributor should rotate their inventory in no more than an additional 6 months. If you get a Fleck valve, let me know which one and I will tell you where the date stamp code is so you can see if it within the 1 year mark that is considered normal. The 5 year warranty starts from the date of purchase according to your receipt, not more than 1 year after the date code, without reciept, the date code becomes your warranty start date. While this is not set in stone, it is very common for most manufacturers. Some will only give a 6 month window from the date of manufacturing.

    Last year we found a box of 48 Fleck 5600 metered valves in the storage area, hidden in a corner. The date stamp showed them to be over ten years old, so... these went to the garage sale rack, no warranty, for $75 each. They sold out in the first half hour we put them out.

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member FleckLander's Avatar
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    My 7000SXT softener should be arriving on Wednesday. Dealer has indicated that it is a current USA production valve. Will be shipped in 4 separate boxes. Customer comments on their website indicate that items were packaged well, so hopefully they'll keep the valve in its original factory box.

    Now I have to decide on how to replumb for the new softener. Current brass valve softener is only a little more than 3 feet along the copper tubing from the control valve outlet to the inlet of the water heater. Installation instructions indicate that the noryl valve shouldn't be any closer than 10 feet from the water heater inlet. I can move away from the water heater and put in a drop for the softener just after the hard cold takeoff for the kitchen sink and outside hose bibs and get about 12 feet from the water heater inlet, which should be OK. I priced 1" copper today. Ten feet of 1" tubing and a few fittings is probably going to cost almost what it cost fifty years ago for materials to plumb the whole house.....lol. Probably not good form though to drop down from the copper with CPVC to the softener.

    I'll be using the Fleck 7000 bypass valve, so I shouldn't need another bypass set up in the plumbing pipes? My plan is to put a 1' FP ball valve on the inlet pipe to the Fleck bypass valve only, and then run Falcon SS flexible connectors from copper 1" MPT adapters on the copper inlet and outlet pipes to the Fleck bypass valve 1" MPT adapters. If the Fleck bypass ever failed, I could just shut off the inlet ball valve, disconnect the Fleck bypass valve, and then connect a flexible connector to the 1" MPT copper inlet and outlet pipes and have a bypass until the Fleck bypass could be repaired. If I go with Falcon SS flexible connectors, can you run them in a "J" pattern off the vertical copper tubing? If so, how long should the horizontal leg be to allow a little room to flex? Thanks for any tips anyone can give me on this.
    Last edited by FleckLander; 04-01-2012 at 07:32 AM.

  4. #19
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FleckLander View Post
    My 7000SXT softener should be arriving on Wednesday. Dealer has indicated that it is a current USA production valve. Will be shipped in 4 separate boxes. Customer comments on their website indicate that items were packaged well, so hopefully they'll keep the valve in its original factory box.

    Now I have to decide on how to replumb for the new softener. Current brass valve softener is only a little more than 3 feet along the copper tubing from the control valve outlet to the inlet of the water heater. Installation instructions indicate that the noryl valve shouldn't be any closer than 10 feet from the water heater inlet. I can move away from the water heater and put in a drop for the softener just after the hard cold takeoff for the kitchen sink and outside hose bibs and get about 12 feet from the water heater inlet, which should be OK. I priced 1" copper today. Ten feet of 1" tubing and a few fittings is probably going to cost almost what it cost fifty years ago for materials to plumb the whole house.....lol. Probably not good form though to drop down from the copper with CPVC to the softener.

    I'll be using the Fleck 7000 bypass valve, so I shouldn't need another bypass set up in the plumbing pipes? My plan is to put a 1' FP ball valve on the inlet pipe to the Fleck bypass valve only, and then run Falcon SS flexible connectors from copper 1" MPT adapters on the copper inlet and outlet pipes to the Fleck bypass valve 1" MPT adapters. If the Fleck bypass ever failed, I could just shut off the inlet ball valve, disconnect the Fleck bypass valve, and then connect a flexible connector to the 1" MPT copper inlet and outlet pipes and have a bypass until the Fleck bypass could be repaired. If I go with Falcon SS flexible connectors, can you run them in a "J" pattern off the vertical copper tubing? If so, how long should the horizontal leg be to allow a little room to flex? Thanks for any tips anyone can give me on this.
    Does your current softener feed only the hot water? The Falcon Flex lines can be flexed any way you want within reason, try to keep them nice looking. They are too nice to not spend a couple minutes trying to make the bands look professional. The price of copper pipe is higher than I have ever seen it. I still prefer to do plumbing in copper, but considering the price, I can see why even the best old time plumbers who would never consider using pex have started to look into it or have started using it. Check out the price of Stainless, it is comparable to copper now, too bad I dont have my old automated Stainless pipe wlder anymore...

    Your idea of putting a ball valve before everything and having the Falcon as a bypass backup is perfect. I have seen a few 7000 bypasses leak after 10 years, small drip, and I have seen a few of the clack interconnecters leak as well. Rare, but by having the Falcon Flex line, you add a great backup that anyone can do, and the Falcon Flex will eliminate a few copper fittings, probably will save you the cost of the Flex lines.

  5. #20
    DIY Junior Member FleckLander's Avatar
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    Current softener feeds hot water and laundry room cold. When I drop down the new loop for the new softener it will add soft cold to all the main bathroom fixtures as well. Depending on how well soft cold in the main bath sink goes for teeth brushing, I plan on adding soft cold to the half bath toilet and sink. The half bath will be easy to swap out as it's all flowguard gold CPCV from the last copper crisis in the 1980's.....lol. After 30 years it all looks good.

  6. #21
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FleckLander View Post
    Current softener feeds hot water and laundry room cold. When I drop down the new loop for the new softener it will add soft cold to all the main bathroom fixtures as well. Depending on how well soft cold in the main bath sink goes for teeth brushing, I plan on adding soft cold to the half bath toilet and sink. The half bath will be easy to swap out as it's all flowguard gold CPCV from the last copper crisis in the 1980's.....lol. After 30 years it all looks good.
    You should be little to no change in the taste of the water for brushing teeth, and there really is no negative. Sounds like you are doing some major piping in your house. If you have plans on installing a tankless water heater, there are some interesting tricks you can do to minimize your saft water needs throughout the house.

    80's copper pipe prices, I just started my water treatment career at the end of that huge spike, the company I started with was very good at using as little copper as possible, and saving every scrap piece for recyclying. We made a lot of money with the recycling copper and brass, that paid for the company parties, ping pong table, etc. When the price dropped again, the recycling almost became a waste of gas to drive it to the recycling center.

  7. #22
    DIY Junior Member FleckLander's Avatar
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    The 7000SXT arrived early this morning with the neighbors early AM UPS next day air stuff. I wasn't that impressed with the packaging of the resin tank. Just a two piece tight fitting box with no collars around the resin tank or anything. Distributor tube was just rolling around loose inside the tank. Is this normal? Resin tank was also a Clack made in Wisconsin. How does it compare to a USA made Structural or Enpress?

    Valve is definitely made in USA, has the Pentair Asembled in USA sticker on it with what looks like 031512 assembly date. Sticker has BLFC: 0.5 GPM, DLFC: 2.4 GPM, and Injector: 2. This doesn't jibe with what the Fleck Performance Bulletin No. 599 recommends for a 12" tank, so I pulled the DLFC, BLFC and injector cap. Injector is white which makes it a #1 I believe? BLFC has "50" on the washer which I assume is 0.5 GPM? DLFC has "350" on the washer which I assume is 3.5 GPM? What's up with all this? Based on the Fleck bulletin I might have problems with brine draw or refill with this combination. This softener was purchased from an online dealer who also said that they had 50 years of experience in their retail store. And I almost forgot the best part. They indicated that their 7000's came with a 32 mm distributor. It looked kinda small so I measured it. Definitely only a 1" tube. So now I've got the dang 1" adapter too. Just because I asked for an upper basket I shouldn't have gotten a 1" distributor also? I can probably live with the 1" distributor, but I think I might have to make a change in the BLFC at least. Any recommendations?

    PS: The sold to and ship to on the valve box was to Enting Water Conditioning. Is this a wholesaler?
    Last edited by FleckLander; 04-04-2012 at 07:10 PM.

  8. #23
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    FleckLander
    The 7000SXT arrived early this morning with the neighbors early AM UPS next day air stuff. I wasn't that impressed with the packaging of the resin tank. Just a two piece tight fitting box with no collars around the resin tank or anything. Distributor tube was just rolling around loose inside the tank. Is this normal? Resin tank was also a Clack made in Wisconsin. How does it compare to a USA made Structural or Enpress?

    Valve is definitely made in USA, has the Pentair Asembled in USA sticker on it with what looks like 031512 assembly date. Sticker has BLFC: 0.5 GPM, DLFC: 2.4 GPM, and Injector: 2. This doesn't jibe with what the Fleck Performance Bulletin No. 599 recommends for a 12" tank, so I pulled the DLFC, BLFC and injector cap. Injector is white which makes it a #1 I believe? BLFC has "50" on the washer which I assume is 0.5 GPM? DLFC has "350" on the washer which I assume is 3.5 GPM? What's up with all this? Based on the Fleck bulletin I might have problems with brine draw or refill with this combination. This softener was purchased from an online dealer who also said that they had 50 years of experience in their retail store. And I almost forgot the best part. They indicated that their 7000's came with a 32 mm distributor. It looked kinda small so I measured it. Definitely only a 1" tube. So now I've got the dang 1" adapter too. Just because I asked for an upper basket I shouldn't have gotten a 1" distributor also? I can probably live with the 1" distributor, but I think I might have to make a change in the BLFC at least. Any recommendations?

    PS: The sold to and ship to on the valve box was to Enting Water Conditioning. Is this a wholesaler?






    1: The Clack tanks are fairly good, I would have no problem with them. I prefer the Structural, but the reason is too long and detailed to go into. To keep it simple, if a warranty issue ever comes up (extremely rare) the Structural is easier to deal with. Regardless, your odds of needing warranty service on a good quality tank are extremely remote, so no worries.
    2: manifold rolling around in the tank... normal, we usually ship them with a foam piece to retain it, but I dont see any damage occuring.
    3: You are correct on the bulletin, that is our 7000 cheat sheet since that information is not posted in any of the manuals. The #1 injector is not technically compatible with the .5 BLFC. The 7000 series controller refills the brine tank with soft water. The water flows through the injector during refill, the Brine line flow control is supposed to regulate the refill rate, if their is a mismatch, the refill will be regulated by the injector. They should send you out the proper injector and BLFC for the 12" tank. #0 red and .25 are the normal combination, a .125 BLFC is also acceptable. I will post the programming guide for this valve tomorrow for the .125 and .25 injectors. The #1 injector would be ok, but since you want this done perfectly, you may as well do the injector too.
    4: The Drain line flow control button should be a 3.5 for a 12" tank, unless your water is excessivley cold or warm.
    5: 1.05" vs 32MM, hmmm, they should have shipped the 32MM if they said they would supply that. The 32mm manifold assembly is considerably more expensive. It also eliminates an o-ring/adapter in the bottom of the control valve. Take a look at the bottom of the control valve where the manifold inserts, if they did it right for the 1.05" manifold, you will see an adapter inserted into the bottom of the valve which adapts the valve from 32mm to 1.05". This part is not removable, if you try to do that, you will break the valve. Once the valve is adapted to 1.05", it stays 1.05". that being said, you will not notice a differencein flow between the 2 sizes on that small of a system.
    6: Upper basket, the 32mm is a standard upper basket size. Ordering an upper basket... they should have shipped the 32mm...
    7: Enting water conditioning, a great company with a great staff. Yes, they are a wholesaler. And, the company should have blind drop shipped the system so Enting would not show up anywhere. Oops.

  9. #24
    DIY Junior Member FleckLander's Avatar
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    Thanks dittto for confirming my suspicions on what I thought bulletin no. 599 was saying.

    After a little googling and comparing shipping addresses and domain registrations, it looks like Enting also operates a retail storefront and an online storefront under a different name that I bought my softener from. I bought from them because they indicated they had the unit in stock in their warehouse and they actually answered questions and gave an opinion on the 7000. They were also $24 cheaper than a competitor, but the competitor definitely offered a Fleck 32 mm distributor and upper basket and a Structural branded resin tank. I didn't try to take advantage of their low price by requesting free gravel, because I can get gravel from a local dealer for like $5, cheaper that their shippping cost on it probably.

    My valve has definitely been changed from the specs on the valve sticker. Sticker says injector 2 and I definitely have a white #1 injector, assuming a #2 blue injector wouldn't have a white top on it visible when I pulled the injector cap? Valve sticker definitely says DLFC 2.4 GPM. I take it that the "350" on the DLFC washer indicates that it is a 3.5 GPM DLFC that I have?

    After reading horror stories on here, the first thing I checked after measuring the distributor tube at 1.05" was that the 1.05" adapter was on the valve. It's definitely there. I realize that the injector and BLFC can be easily swapped out to the manufacturer recommended #0 and .125 or .25. Switching to the 32 mm distributor is going to require shipping the valve back. Would I be a jerk for requesting what they said they would ship in their email and that what the valve actually has is the same as what the valve sticker says it has? The changed injector and DLFC gives me a feeling that my valve might have been a return or something. I think I better dig out my feeler guage set to make sure that I don't have a fine mesh distributor and upper basket too. I'll be sending an email back to the seller regarding these questions after I confirm that question on the "350" on the DLFC washer = 3.5GPM. I just want to make sure I know what I'm talking about before I get back to them......lol.

    PS: Does the S/N ******X-031512-0006 indicate my valve was assembled on 03-15-2012?
    Last edited by FleckLander; 04-05-2012 at 07:09 AM.

  10. #25
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Your research and effort you have put into this purchase should be applauded. I appreciate it. You have done more homework than many of the people who sell equipment.

    Regarding the valve being a return, it is probably not. The specs you say were on the valve match up to the way many distributors have ordered their valves in the past, without realizing the conflict in the injector/BLFC size. Most companies specify the valve to their liking, IE: injector, BLFC, DLFC, and even preprogrammed (flashed ROM) so that the majority of their valves can go out the door without even the need for programming. When we fill orders or build units, we change the injector, BLFC, and DLFC to match the system design (tank, media, etc.). We can even change pistons, brine cams, etc. to match the system design. I highly doubt your system is a return, but they should at least send you out the correct injector and BLFC. it will cost them a few dollars to ship it, but it would be the right thing to do. As to the valve being 1.05" instead of 32mm, you will never notice the difference. If you had a 5 cu. ft. system then you would need a 32mm distributor, but for your application the 1.05" is fine. your real limiting factor will be the restriction through the media, not the manifold.

    The only way to remove the 32mm x 1.05" adapter is with a hacksaw blade, a steady hand, and 10 minutes.

    Now, the real world information. The injector / BLFC conflict you have will probably not affect the way the valve performs, but it is pushing the limits. This "wrong" configuration has been a common problem for many years and is caused by people not realizing the 7000 refills through the injector. This could cause the system to slightly underfill the brine tank since the injector becomes the flow control instead of the BLFC button. Most people never notice if there is a slight undersalting since the system has some reserves built into it that would hide this potential conflict.

    Again, thanks for doing the research.

  11. #26
    DIY Junior Member FleckLander's Avatar
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    I emailed the seller on Friday with a copy of the Fleck bulletin and let them know my concerns about the oversized BLFC and larger injector. I got the impression that they weren't aware of this particular Fleck bulletin regarding the 7000 valve. I found this interesting from someone who touts their 50 years of experience on their website. I checked with an online competitor yesterday who gets critized for not knowing what they are doing sometimes on here. They had apparently read the bulletin as their 7000's were sized with the Fleck recommended injector and BLFC.

    I never got an email response from my seller. To their credit, a #0 red injector and .25 GPM BLFC washer did arrive in the mail yesterday, along with my Falcon flexible SS connectors from another seller. To my suprise, the Falcon's were made in China? What's up with this?

  12. #27
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FleckLander View Post
    I emailed the seller on Friday with a copy of the Fleck bulletin and let them know my concerns about the oversized BLFC and larger injector. I got the impression that they weren't aware of this particular Fleck bulletin regarding the 7000 valve. I found this interesting from someone who touts their 50 years of experience on their website. I checked with an online competitor yesterday who gets critized for not knowing what they are doing sometimes on here. They had apparently read the bulletin as their 7000's were sized with the Fleck recommended injector and BLFC.

    I never got an email response from my seller. To their credit, a #0 red injector and .25 GPM BLFC washer did arrive in the mail yesterday, along with my Falcon flexible SS connectors from another seller. To my suprise, the Falcon's were made in China? What's up with this?
    I am glad they sent the corrct injector and BLFC. I have attached the programming guide for you if it helps. This is our "default" programming for the 7000. It will work for 90% of applications and will balance salt and water efficiency, and should give you very high quality soft water. The only major change in the programming would be the hardness. Set it to the actual hardness.

    Yes, the Falcon Flex lines are made in China. They have been able to maintain control of their manufacturing and have done an excellent job of keeping the quality high. A couple of competitors make similar products in China, but the quality has never been as good as the Falcon.

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