Do I need a softener?

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Mialynette2003

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The only real weakness on the original 5600 has always been the motor, in particular the 24 volt motor. The main gear had a breakage problem for a while, and the pin inside the powerhead would break speeding up the motors demise. The regeneration clear tripper arm would break, and the key pins would also let loose on occassion. The meter cable had a few issues years ago as well. The mechanical meter on the other hand may be one of the most reliable meters ever manufactured. The 5600SXT uses a differnt motor design, and it is not running 24/7. It uses the mini turbine meter which is a decent quality meter, but the 7000's internal turbine design is far better, last longer, and cost half as much to replace when the time comes. In higher flow applications, the mini turbine tends to wear out, but that usually only happens on systems that are running at high velocity for extended periods of times (all the time, commercial applications). Not a common problem in residential applications. With that being said, I have broken 1 5600 neck, but that was human error, not the valve. I kocked an old system over and the valve landed on a step.

One of the largest commercial softening companies in California switched from the 5600 to the 7000 for simple rental equipment about 10 years ago, and has never had to send a valve back to us for warranty. They put out about 300 units a year, so far, that is a pretty good record. They switched from the Erie 541 to the 5600 about 20 years ago.

The 7000, Proflo, 5600SXt or the 2510SXT are all excellent control valves will be an excellent choice that will last for many years.

My personal preferance is as follows. 7000XT, 2510SXT, 5600SXT, PROFLO, then the old electromechanical 5600.

One of our biggest sellers is still the 5600 Econominder, it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks. That, and many of our old timer customers are still afraid of electronics and softeners since there were so many problems 20 years ago when they started mixing two.
I have been dealing with the electromechanical 5600 for 22+ years and have never seen the problems you are referring to other than the motor. IMO, the problem with the motor is caused by the piston and seals. If you keep them replaced, the motor problem is gone.
 

Gary Slusser

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Skip, I agree, never heard of broken valve bodies. And the old 5600 mechanical metered Econominder is a very dependable control valve although it is very basic.

Back in the late 80s and early to mid 90s I serviced a few that I didn't sell and were like 15+ yrs old that had a motor burned out and the knob was very hard to rotate. So a new upgraded version motor, seals, spacers and piston and it was fixed for many more years of service.
 

ditttohead

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The problems I described have been updated. The main gear was a huge problem for both residential and commercial applications. I am just now lowering my inventory of the main gear. The first tooth breaks off, it was corrected by tweaking the mold many years ago. The cable problem was corrected in noted in a service bulletin many years ago as well. The motor problem... remember the red plastic gear? Wow, what a quality piece that was. :) I sell tons of 24 motors for replacments. I only stock a couple of 2510 drive motors, 7000, WS1, etc, I stock hundreds of 24 v. 5600 motors. The motors they have been using for the last several years have been much better. I just checked my computer, we sold 2122 24V. 5600 motors since 2005. That being said, the valve is the best selling water softener valve in the history of automated valves, so this is a very small number of motors. The vast majority of the motors work great for many years. And you are right, the worn piston causes a lot of stress on the motor causing excessive wear, and the fact that the motor is running 24/7.

Here are a few interesting bulletins that indicate minor problems that have been corrected. Fleck consistently adjusts their product line to make it better. They also are fairly good about sending out bulletins to indicate these changes.

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.co...er Treatment/Bulletins/333-2510 Slip Ring.pdf
http://www.pentairwatertreatment.co...lletins/362-New Output Pinion & Main Gear.pdf
http://www.pentairwatertreatment.co...reatment/Bulletins/374-5600 Timer Caution.pdf
http://www.pentairwatertreatment.co...ment/Bulletins/403-3200 5600 Motor Change.pdf

These are just a few bulletins outlining some of the issues I mentioned. Most people would never know of these problems since they almost never come up. But Fleck and Clack are great companies that take every field reported problem seriously and actively work to make their valves better.

The reason I see these problems regularly is nothing more than volume. We sell thousands of valves, and when there are that many moving, we here or see of every problem that comes up. The 24 volt motor issue may only occur in .1% of the installed units, so it is more of a lottery pick than a common problem.

I have also used close to 300 5600 valves a year in commercial applications where the valve regenerates daily in the worst environments. The 5600 lasted far better than any other valve we had used up until then.

Moral of this long story, all of the manufacturers valves have problems, but the vast majority of them will never be known because when a problem is found, Clack and Fleck jump on it to get it corrected. Every year we see minor changes on all of the valves. Sometimes it is a material change, other times it is the simpla addition of a screw to help the valve handle the abuses of UPS.
 

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The only real weakness on the original 5600 has always been the motor, in particular the 24 volt motor.
After Fleck changed the motor way back when, I didn't have any motor problems and in those days the mechanical metered 5600 was all I sold other than a few Technetic 1000s and 169 Autotrols.

The main gear had a breakage problem for a while, and the pin inside the powerhead would break speeding up the motors demise. The regeneration clear tripper arm would break, and the key pins would also let loose on occassion.
That stuff was usually caused by some ham handed guy, like a plumber, rotating the knob backwards.

The meter cable had a few issues years ago as well. The mechanical meter on the other hand may be one of the most reliable meters ever manufactured.
I never saw any bad cable problems

One of the largest commercial softening companies in California switched from the 5600 to the 7000 for simple rental equipment about 10 years ago, and has never had to send a valve back to us for warranty.
In all my years since 1987 I can't recall ever sending a valve anywhere for warranty.

I've heard from pump and plumbing supply house guys of many of their plumbers and well drillers doing it though. IMO they were not being trained properly and couldn't replace parts but, many plumbers and drillers refused to do any repair work; mostly because they couldn't troubleshoot. The supply house guys weren't all that good either but they usually gave it a good ol' college try.

They put out about 300 units a year, so far, that is a pretty good record. They switched from the Erie 541 to the 5600 about 20 years ago.
Hell man as a non professional old guy as you call me, with nothing but a phone, computer, internet connection and dinky little web site over only 6.5 yrs I did 240+ Clack valves a year while sitting in my underwear in my motor home.

One of our biggest sellers is still the 5600 Econominder, it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks. That, and many of our old timer customers are still afraid of electronics and softeners since there were so many problems 20 years ago when they started mixing two.
Yeah you young immature progressive types always want to change things thinking they'll be better. And now we better hope we continue to have unlimited electrical service or nothing will work. Lately I'm thinking I'm seeing a lot of uncertainty in that happening much longer.
 

Tom Sawyer

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After Fleck changed the motor way back when, I didn't have any motor problems and in those days the mechanical metered 5600 was all I sold other than a few Technetic 1000s and 169 Autotrols.


That stuff was usually caused by some ham handed guy, like a plumber, rotating the knob backwards.


I never saw any bad cable problems


In all my years since 1987 I can't recall ever sending a valve anywhere for warranty.

I've heard from pump and plumbing supply house guys of many of their plumbers and well drillers doing it though. IMO they were not being trained properly and couldn't replace parts but, many plumbers and drillers refused to do any repair work; mostly because they couldn't troubleshoot. The supply house guys weren't all that good either but they usually gave it a good ol' college try.


Hell man as a non professional old guy as you call me, with nothing but a phone, computer, internet connection and dinky little web site over only 6.5 yrs I did 240+ Clack valves a year while sitting in my underwear in my motor home.


Yeah you young immature progressive types always want to change things thinking they'll be better. And now we better hope we continue to have unlimited electrical service or nothing will work. Lately I'm thinking I'm seeing a lot of uncertainty in that happening much longer.

Kinetico's will but that naturally depends on having power to your water pump or that the city supply is still up and running.

I'm thinking your daddy must have been a plumber and left your poor mother to raise you all alone. Why else the irrational dislike for the trade LOL Ham handed indeed, as though homeowners etc would never do such a thing.
 

Gary Slusser

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Kinetico's will but that naturally depends on having power to your water pump or that the city supply is still up and running.
A.... you don't have a well pump if you have city water. And you don't have city water if the company doesn't have operable generators and fuel for them.

I'm thinking your daddy must have been a plumber and left your poor mother to raise you all alone. Why else the irrational dislike for the trade LOL Ham handed indeed, as though homeowners etc would never do such a thing.
Irrational!! You wish.

I've worked with plumbers, seen and listened to them eating donuts and BSing at their supply houses many times and heard ham handed stories from homeowners and business owners from Puerto Rico to Alaska across the US and Canada. Plus I've had ham handed and dumber'n a stick plumbers installing equipment for my customers calling me numerous times, numerous times and I've had a few work for me from time to time. One was very good and we referred each other to prospective customers and I gave him a serious finders fee for any equipment I sold because of his referral and partial sale for me. We did that for many years. The rest were The Simpsons type like you.

When I was growing up back in the 1940s and 50s, after Dad came home from WWII in mid '46, I was all but 5 by then, he was a punch and shear machine operator building railroad cars while he went to night school 3 nights a week under the GI Bill for 3-4 years to become a machinist.

Prior to my arrival, my parents with the help of Dad's family and a team of horses, dug the basement by hand and built a 2 bedroom bungalow with rough sawn lumber and cedar clapboard siding and moved in in the early fall of 1941. I was conceived sometime in late March as Dad was leaving to join the Army and end up deep in WWII in Belgium and the Battle of the Bulge as a communications/radio guy.

BTW, they did their own plumbing and the only mistake was using a lead service line for city water, but back in the late '30s, who knew, that's what all the plumbers said to use. While everyone else knew better by the late 1980s wasn't it, plumbers in Chicago still insisted on lead only. Luckily we had hard water.
 

ditttohead

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As I said, I have a few more years of experience working with the valves in applications that push them beyond their normal application. Considering the company I worked for had over 10,000 rental commercial units in the field and I was responsible for them, this gives me a little more exposure ot the potential problems that might arise. I also said that the company put out "translation, installed themselves" 300 of the 7000 valves a year and these are primarily in small commercial rental applications. This does not include the large number of 5600's, 9100's, and commercial units which is their primary business...



And... just because you personally did not see a problem does not mean that it does not exist. I would think that you would read the posts from the many experienced people on this site and learn from them instead of claiming that every post is a lie because you never saw it...

I read your posts about items that you have experience on and problems you have seen, and I try to remeber them so that should I get a call from a customer with a similar problem, I will have some reference or idea as to what to do.

Young, immature, progressive? Can we keep the dicsussion at some level of proffessionalism.

The growth of an industry by continually improving a design to be better than its competition is how a company stays in business In the process, many companies have gone under, or are nothing more than an obscure product sold by a few customers that want a product that looks different. . Schurz, Solo, and dozens of other valve manufacturers had great designs for their time, but Fleck, Clack, and Autotrol have continuously improved upon their designs to stay in business and have grown to be the companies they are today. What is wrong with making equipment better, simpler, easier to manufacture, longer lasting, higher quality, more efficient, higher flowing, less polluting etc? Is this bad because it is a change? The 5600 was a new valve years ago and basically wiped out the 541, A-155, Schurz valve and many others. Shoud we all go back to selling the Schurz valve? How about the good old days when we took the cover off of the steel mineral tank and poured salt into it, then manually turned valves to recharge the resin.



And to think, these 6 pages started from a simple question of "Do I need a softener?"

I think this horse has been returned to the dirt.
 

F6Hawk

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Brine tank sizing...

I read somewhere online that a 14" X 34" square brine tank will hold about 270 lbs of salt, a 18X33 about 375 lbs, and a 18X40 about 450 lbs. Obviously, a larger tank allows less frequent refill of salt, but are there any drawbacks to getting a larger tank?

If the above numbers are correct, then using 9/6lbs per regeneration means I would have to refill the brine tank about:
14X34 - 6 bags every 26/40 days
18X33 - 9 bags every 40/60 days
18X40 - 11 bags every 48/73 days

If my numbers are correct, and if there is no downside to a larger tank other than costing about $10 or $20 more, would ye experts recommend a larger one? My softener will be located in the basement.

TIA!!
 

Akpsdvan

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About the only down side that I could see on a larger salt/salt tank and longer time between filling would be the possibility of what is called a Salt bridge taking place.
Some places will do a salt bridge and some will not... I have learned it is any ones guess as to which will and which will not.

If the larger one does do a bridge on you, then just run with maybe only filling half way.
 

Gary Slusser

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Actually, Gary, Ditto has answered several of my questions, or at least provided data that has helped me make an informed decision. Not that he is the only one, but since you pointed him out, I thought I'd say he has helped. In fact, in this entire thread, I kinda feel like YOU are the only antagonistic, opinionated, and by far the LEAST HELPFUL when it comes to answering my questions, both about do I need a softener, and since I do, which system to build. You tout yourself as helping a DIY'er (which I certainly am), but thus far, I am underwhelmed with your assistance. How about you provide me some answers instead of attacking other posters in MY thread???
In post #7, your 3rd post in the thread, you said (replying to Alan): "I am a bit cornfused about sizing... you mention 1.5 CuFt (which I saw on Gary's site), but when I reference this site: http://www.apswater.com/water_soften...0&perperson=80
all I see are numbers like 32K, 64K, 40K, etc. How do these relate to each other?
**************
Now to me, you must be trying to not understand what I've said on my site about those K numbers but what did you expect me to do, explain it to you again? Further more, you didn't believe what I said on my web site, why would I think you'd believe what I told you in YOUR thread?

Anyway, Alan explained the 32K etc, numbers in post #10 before I saw your question. Did you need me to say he was right? Actually I did in a way by quoting him to Tom and telling Tom he needed to study what was said. That was in post #12. That was 9 days ago.

I also alerted you to problems with the 7000 that you then heard of from other dealers you contacted. So I'm not in agreement with you that I haven't helped you or answered your questions but you're entitled to your opinion and have a responsibility to ask me for more info if you really want my input and I haven't provided it again here after you've already found what you need to know on my site with the exception of your peak demand flow rate that no one but you can provide but...

Tell me what's not to understand in the part starting at the EX: at the bottom of the link below or in the copy of the table I pasted in below the link;

http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm.

EX: 1.5cuft using a 6 lb PER cuft (9lb) salt dose generates 30000 grains (3333 grains/lb); 10 lb PER cuft (15lb) = 40500 (2700 grains/lb) etc.
cuft​
6lb PER ft​
8 lb PER ft​
10lb PER ft
15lb PER ft
1.020,00024,00027,00030,000
1.530,00036,00040,50045,000
2.040,00048,00054,00060,000
2.550,00060,000
67,500​
75,000
3.060,00072,00081,00090,000
4.080,00096,000108,000120,000
5.0100,000120,000135,000
150,000
.
 

Akpsdvan

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Brine tank sizing...

I read somewhere online that a 14" X 34" square brine tank will hold about 270 lbs of salt, a 18X33 about 375 lbs, and a 18X40 about 450 lbs. Obviously, a larger tank allows less frequent refill of salt, but are there any drawbacks to getting a larger tank?

If the above numbers are correct, then using 9/6lbs per regeneration means I would have to refill the brine tank about:
14X34 - 6 bags every 26/40 days
18X33 - 9 bags every 40/60 days
18X40 - 11 bags every 48/73 days

If my numbers are correct, and if there is no downside to a larger tank other than costing about $10 or $20 more, would ye experts recommend a larger one? My softener will be located in the basement.

TIA!!

I am thinking that if the 48k unit or 1.5 cubic with 9lbs and if your family uses about an est 300per day then you would use just under 1 40lbs bag per month.
if the 14x14x33 salt tank which will hold about 7 bag, that would be every 6-7 months..

But this is all going on water usage numbers that could be lower than your families use ... after about 6 months the usage pattern should be showing its self.
 

Gary Slusser

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Brine tank sizing...

I read somewhere online that a 14" X 34" square brine tank will hold about 270 lbs of salt, a 18X33 about 375 lbs, and a 18X40 about 450 lbs. Obviously, a larger tank allows less frequent refill of salt, but are there any drawbacks to getting a larger tank?

If the above numbers are correct, then using 9/6lbs per regeneration means I would have to refill the brine tank about:
14X34 - 6 bags every 26/40 days
18X33 - 9 bags every 40/60 days
18X40 - 11 bags every 48/73 days

If my numbers are correct, and if there is no downside to a larger tank other than costing about $10 or $20 more, would ye experts recommend a larger one? My softener will be located in the basement.

TIA!!
I wouldn't.

The major downside of larger is the extended length of time between refills will cause you to forget to check the salt level frequently enough and the softener will run out. Then you get hard water and if you have any, iron and manganese, through it.

Then you do 2 manual regens at the max of 15lbs/cuft of resin with no water use during or between them. You won't like doing that because of how long it takes and how much salt it eats up.

And lugging one 25 or 50 lb bag every month or so is a lot easier than lugging many more (like 9 or 10) all at once some distant day in the unknown future.

Plus I say you should not fill a salt tank more than 1/2 full. That helps prevent problems in the salt tank and makes you check the level more frequently so you don't let the softener run out of salt. And if you have a problem with the salt tank it is much easier to work on it when 1/2 full or less full than when you have like 432 lbs in it and no empty salt bags laying around to put it in when you need to remove most of it to fix the problem in the salt tank.

BTW, I like a 15" x 17" salt tank with a grid (unless you are using potassium chloride) and I see you didn't mention that size. Or a grid. Or brine well or safety brine float which I always sold/included (whether they wanted those things or not). They all have advantages and prevent problems, which relate to phone calls or emails.

And while I'm here, no prefilter unless you have visible dirt in the water, and then it should be a backwashed sediment filter and not a disposable cartridge type filter. Which you'll forget to change when needed (at 15 psi pressure drop, not what it looks like) and cause the softener to fail.
 

LLigetfa

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And lugging one 25 or 50 lb bag every month or so is a lot easier than lugging many more (like 9 or 10) all at once some distant day in the unknown future..
I find lugging two at a time balanced to be easier than one lopsided. My brine tank holds four bags and adding two when it gets down to about half works for me. There isn't any law that says the brine tank needs to be filled, so a big tank half full is not a crime.

I have never forgotten and had the tank completely empty. I like to wait until the brine level is visible to verify that brining is working as expected and that is when I run some Iron Out through it.
 

ditttohead

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Brine tank sizing...

I read somewhere online that a 14" X 34" square brine tank will hold about 270 lbs of salt, a 18X33 about 375 lbs, and a 18X40 about 450 lbs. Obviously, a larger tank allows less frequent refill of salt, but are there any drawbacks to getting a larger tank?

If the above numbers are correct, then using 9/6lbs per regeneration means I would have to refill the brine tank about:
14X34 - 6 bags every 26/40 days
18X33 - 9 bags every 40/60 days
18X40 - 11 bags every 48/73 days

If my numbers are correct, and if there is no downside to a larger tank other than costing about $10 or $20 more, would ye experts recommend a larger one? My softener will be located in the basement.

TIA!!

Your thought is correct, the larger the brine tank, the better. Their is no downside. Keep it full, when you are at home depot, grab a bag of salt. I am not saying to buy a swimming pool sized brine tank, but an 18x40 or even an 24x40 is fine. The only advantage of a smaller tank is when you have space considerations. Brine grids, no brine grid... I have heard every argument for the past 20 years on that as well, real world answer, either way is fine.

Salt bridging is a rare problem and can usually be corrected by switching to a different salt type (pellet to crystal, or vice versa) or just program your control valve to do a brine fill first. Briging is most prevelant in extremely humid environments, or in areas where there are extreme changes in temperature between day and night, and the brine tank is located in that environment. In a basement, you will be fine.

One other problem with the larger brine tank, it is taller, lifting a 50 pound bag over the 40" tall tank can be difficult for grandma, so we will use 30" tanks for the older folks.

As a side note, not critical to this discussion, but before someone jumps in with their personal attack/opinion, we use brine grids for marketing in residential applications, commercially, they allow us to use much smaller brine tanks especially on large equipment when there is limited space for the brine tank. I have built brine grids that were 30 inches tall in a 60" diameter x 48" tall tank due to extreme space limitations. If brine grids were as important as some people claim, then why are they a rare feature on commercial equipment?
 

ditttohead

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I find lugging two at a time balanced to be easier than one lopsided. My brine tank holds four bags and adding two when it gets down to about half works for me. There isn't any law that says the brine tank needs to be filled, so a big tank half full is not a crime.

I have never forgotten and had the tank completely empty. I like to wait until the brine level is visible to verify that brining is working as expected and that is when I run some Iron Out through it.

Perfect way to do it, it also lets you see if the brine solution is getting nasty. You know that 99.9% pure salt claim on the bag? That leaves a lot of "non salt" leftover. I have been to the manufacturing and solar evaporation sites for the primary suppliers of salt to the West oast, the biggest are in California, and in Guerro Negro. These facilities are amazing, but there also a lot of birds in these areas. I wonder what could be in that .1% of non salt. BTW I fill my tank to the top, then when it gets very low, I clean and sanitize it. This is about once every 10-12 months.
 

LLigetfa

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Now and then I will scrape out the dredges from the bottom of the brine tank and spread it on my gravel drive. It keeps the dust down.
 

Gary Slusser

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Your thought is correct, the larger the brine tank, the better. Their is no downside. Keep it full, when you are at home depot, grab a bag of salt.
Buying a bag when out to a big box store isn't much different than like once a month or so but, I think F6Hawk might be interested in buying salt as infrequently as possible.

Salt bridging is a rare problem and can usually be corrected by switching to a different salt type (pellet to crystal, or vice versa) or just program your control valve to do a brine fill first.

Briging is most prevelant in extremely humid environments, or in areas where there are extreme changes in temperature between day and night, and the brine tank is located in that environment. In a basement, you will be fine.
Usually pellets bridge long before crystal will.

You must be from a very dry low humidity area with little to no experience with salt bridging... like California. The majority of the rest of the US has some serious humidity. I know Central PA where I'm from does. I have seen hundreds of cases of salt bridging. And all those softeners were in a basement because the only residence without a basement in most of PA are cabins that are not full time residences. And the larger the salt tank the more likely bridging problems are.

One other problem with the larger brine tank, it is taller, lifting a 50 pound bag over the 40" tall tank can be difficult for grandma, so we will use 30" tanks for the older folks.
"One other problem" with a larger salt tank, what would the other problem be? I htuhgt you said there was no problem with larger and the larger the better.

As a side note, not critical to this discussion, but before someone jumps in with their personal attack/opinion, we use brine grids for marketing in residential applications, commercially, they allow us to use much smaller brine tanks especially on large equipment when there is limited space for the brine tank.

I have built brine grids that were 30 inches tall in a 60" diameter x 48" tall tank due to extreme space limitations. If brine grids were as important as some people claim, then why are they a rare feature on commercial equipment?
I haven't seen anyone say a grid is important but I see you used them too.

There is no negative wit hthe use of a grid.

A grid keeps the salt tank cleaner than without one. That reduces salt tank cleaning which is not a fun thing.

A grid prevents a lot of salt bridging problems; except in the few very low humidity areas of North America.

A salt grid usually adds about $10 retail to the price of a softener with a normal size salt tank, and a grid should last a couple decades since they started making them out of plastic about 25 years ago.

They are ideal with Pre refill/dry brining softener control valves. Next to no salt sits under water for more than a few hours except that being dissolved just prior to that night's regeneration.

You call it marketing but most of my prospective customers really liked the positives I've listed above. BTW, I can't think of any negatives to the use of a grid, can you?

OH YES!

A grid can help prevent salt tank overflow too. Especially for those folks that like to keep the tank full of salt.

That overflow thing is another reason to not keep a salt tank full AND to frequently check inside the salt tank and if you see water with a salt grid installed, there is a problem, either you need to add salt or to troubleshoot the softener for water going into the salt tank when it is not supposed to be, or brine not being drawn out during a regeneration as it should be.

Again before it gets lost, can you come up with any negatives of a salt grid in a residential softener?

Or, for a commercial softener or do you think the positives don't apply to commercial establishment softeners?

I didn't see anything wrong and saw all the advantages so I included one with all my commercial sales too. Especially if the softener was in a basement, commercial or residential, where no one noticed them for months (because they filled the salt tank only a few times a year) until the softener stopped working or someone one day nonchalantly asked why there was water all over the basement floor.

I, Gary Slusser, hereby Certify the above reply personal attack/opinion free.
 

F6Hawk

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Sounds like a salt grid can be beneficial. I think I'll build mine out of left-over mattress and some zinc legs.
 

Akpsdvan

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Location
Alaska
Some one has been watching way to many back yard do it your self shows.......

Left over mattress?

Any idea if you will be getting a patent for this idea?
 
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