Do I need a softener?

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Tom Sawyer

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It means what I said, you don't have any experience with DIYers and do not understand what motivates them.

You have both but don't do well here answering questions.


National figures show 80+% of Americans have internet service. Research shows that more than 80% go online to research products they are interested in or wanting to buy.

Many millions of them then buy those products online. The biggest reason they do that is based on convenience and the time it saves them, and many will pay more for the product because of the convenience but, most price shop too.

Most people that contacted me and bought from me did so based on my posts that you and others whined about for years. The vast majority told me why they bought from me instead of another online dealer, or the local dealers or plumbers or drillers they had out to their house before getting online and finding my posts.

Now I'll leave you to come up with whatever reason you think they gave me but I'll bet ya get it wrong; as you have by saying it was the price. Hint... it's a five letter word but it ain't price although the online price comparison to a local dealer or plumber was mentioned frequently but... that price from a dealer or plumber is why many got online but it was not the most important reason, or why they contacted me and bought from me.

Actually I told them they were grossly unfair in comparing online pricing to local dealers etc. because we didn't have the overhead they had. And we passed the savings on to them while keeping our prices low because we were in tough competition with all other online dealers. And it was very easy for them to compare our prices while it was very difficult and time consuming to compare local prices because they couldn't get a price without having a salesperson or crack showin' plumber come out to the house first!

BTW, a fair percentage of my customers had a plumber do their installation. Most, although I strongly advised against it, had that plumber do the assembly also. I actually suggested using a plumber for the installation if I thought it was something the prospective customer couldn't handle.

I spent many an hour on the phone with know it all plumbers with questions or problems because they would not follow my instructions.

Ok, now what is your point? and more over.........other than you, who cares? LOL

BTW, I do pretty well answering questions here and if I bothered to save them I could show you many many PM's from folks that would rather get a straight no BS answer than have to wade through page after page of useless arguments and convoluted reasoning......like this thread LOL I don't think you have a clue how frustrating it is to the folks asking questions to have to read through all the nonsense. Funny also that it does not seem to happen much on the other forum threads on this forum. Funny also why it seems like every single screwed up thread has your name attached to it. Notice how all the rest of us here somehow manage to get along and treat each other with respect. Why do you suppose that is?
 
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Gary Slusser

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as... YOU!

Yeah all that going on about you didn't care if people knew who you are and anyone could find out who you are... Tom, NHMaster, and all the other fake names he's used said the same thing "anybody can find my name" blah blah blah..., Google could only find one article by you. And now you don't want anyone, or is it just me, using your first name. What fakes you two are. BTW, does the E. stand for Egotistical or Egotist, or, just Exceptional?

I know his first and last name and where he lives as well but unlike you, I respect his privacy. Another dead horse issue that you seem unable to grasp. Some of us worry about unstable folks perhaps showing up on our door steps. As you don't have a door step, it's pretty easy for you to say anything you want, but again, this has all been explained to you in great detail but you refuse to either comprehend or more likely care about other folks wishes. I suggest you either let this one go for good or start complaining that 90% of the moderators on this site don't publish their names or their personal addresses either. Your behavior in this matter can only be described a crass and rude. Dealing with kids all day I often wonder where many of their behaviors stem from but honestly, I have a pretty good idea.

Well then, what does the E stand for?

Y'all worry about me showing up because yer scared. A hell of a way to live if ya ask me but then I suppose its due to your BS in forums like here where you aren't all that proud of your anonymous, grass and rude behavior.

If I were going to show up at someone's door because of something they said or did in a forum, I would tell them I was coming, just to see if they would be there when I arrived but, yous guys are stalking me wherever I go on the internet as anonymous self important nits and not worth the effort or expense. Plus y'all brought me more business over the years than you'll ever know and I being retired'n all, I entertain ya now just for kicks.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Well then, what does the E stand for?

Y'all worry about me showing up because yer scared. A hell of a way to live if ya ask me but then I suppose its due to your BS in forums like here where you aren't all that proud of your anonymous, grass and rude behavior.

If I were going to show up at someone's door because of something they said or did in a forum, I would tell them I was coming, just to see if they would be there when I arrived but, yous guys are stalking me wherever I go on the internet as anonymous self important nits and not worth the effort or expense. Plus y'all brought me more business over the years than you'll ever know and I being retired'n all, I entertain ya now just for kicks.

First off it's crass, not grass second off, there you go again inferring things that nobody has said. Did anyone here express a fear that YOU would show up on their door step? Nope, and even if you did I guarantee that you would be polite and civil, at least to me anyway. As for stalking you on the internet, you need to put on the trusty tin foil helmet again. That you belong, whoops sorry......belonged to the same forums that most of us do has a whole lot more to do with the SUBJECT of the forum rather than anyone's desire to stalk you. I could just as easily twist things around and accuse you of stalking us. But....your brain does not seem to have a healthy logic circuit so.........go find the helmet. LOL And I'm glad we brought you business. I whole hardheartedly support any American that has what it takes to run any business in today's economy. And yes, your antics are very very entertaining indeed.

Next..............................................
 

F6Hawk

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Thanks for the input, Jimbo, I appreciate an answer to my question. 9 isn't terribly hard, I just wonder what softer feels like, and what less spotty glasses look like, LOL. I'm also concerned as to what the inside of my DHW boiler coil looks like. Methinks that perhaps things would be better at 1~5gpg than 9. That's why I turned to a forum to get opinions.

If any of you pros want to offer good advice about the max gpg that a person should be willing to live with, or how to properly size a system (should I opt to install one), that would be greatly appreciated. Using my thread to compare the size of your cyber wankers is a tad uncalled for, and certainly less than helpful.

Dittohead, thanks for clearing up my question about cu ft and K sizing. That helps me understand a bit better.
 

ditttohead

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Your welcome. For hardness levels that you should put up with... it is purely a personal preference. There are many studies that show the benefits of soft water for efficiencies of appliances, energy savings, lower chemical and soap consumtion, etc...

In my opinon, a tankless water heater should have softened water if the hardness exceed a few grains, even if you only feed the tankless heater and not the whole house. Soft water is a luxury item to many people. Those who are not used to it will find it unusual when they use it for the first time. This will pass in a short amount of time as your brain is retrained to a "new normal". For those who have hard water, the soft water will have a "slimy" feel for a while and it seems like soap will not rinse off. Those who have soft water will notice when their softener runs out of salt or malfunctions by the "sticky water" and the soap no longer works.

Other benefits are reduced skin problems for many people, eaiser personal grooming (women washing their hair, men shaving). My wife knows when the water gets above 1 gpg because she is unable to wash her hair without great difficulty. One of my daughters gets a mild case of eczema anytime I take the softener offline for testing of service. The eczema goes away within days of putting the unit back online.

Some people hate soft water and are extremely happy with whole house carbon filtration.

It is a tough call. I personally have multiple whole house systems/medias on my house, but I also test and prototype equipment constantly so I have a good reason to have equipment that would be considered completely overkill for most applications. The one item I would have if I had to chose would be the traditional water softener.
 

Tom Sawyer

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I think he has a tankless boiler coil which are very susceptible to liming from hard water conditions because the coil itself sits in a bath of constantly hot water. IMO, if slight hardness is acceptable at the fauctes etc, the best thing to do would be to get rid of the tankless coil and go with a boiler indirect which will handle hard'ish water conditions far better and.......save enough money on fuel to pay for itself in under 5 years and...................give limitless, balanced temperature hot water.
 

F6Hawk

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Well, skin problems and hair-washing issues certainly abound in a house with two women with long hair. Those two reasons alone (or should I say, my peace of mind frmo not having to listen about their "issues" might make it worth it, lol. Other than a little hardness (which, from my reading, is actually better for us in consumption), the water tastes/smells great. So with y'alls help, I think I will design/install a system that will handle my house.

So far, I am hearing a 32K resin tank, and a 7000SXT valve being recommended. I believe someone said the 7000 is a 1.25" valve, can I just reduce it down to 3/4"?

Are the calculations on this page accurate, as far as system sizing goes? http://www.apswater.com/water_softe...owerflow=2.5&grainshard=9&iron=0&perperson=80 Should I use 80, or 60 gals per person? That site recommends 32K, but is it truly big enough? If I want to have my system working around 6 lbs/cu ft, would a 48K be more appropriate? I'd much rather spend the few extra $$$ and get it right the first time.

Thanks for all the assistance!
 

Tom Sawyer

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Well, skin problems and hair-washing issues certainly abound in a house with two women with long hair. Those two reasons alone (or should I say, my peace of mind frmo not having to listen about their "issues" might make it worth it, lol. Other than a little hardness (which, from my reading, is actually better for us in consumption), the water tastes/smells great. So with y'alls help, I think I will design/install a system that will handle my house.

So far, I am hearing a 32K resin tank, and a 7000SXT valve being recommended. I believe someone said the 7000 is a 1.25" valve, can I just reduce it down to 3/4"?

Are the calculations on this page accurate, as far as system sizing goes? http://www.apswater.com/water_softe...owerflow=2.5&grainshard=9&iron=0&perperson=80 Should I use 80, or 60 gals per person? That site recommends 32K, but is it truly big enough? If I want to have my system working around 6 lbs/cu ft, would a 48K be more appropriate? I'd much rather spend the few extra $$$ and get it right the first time.

Thanks for all the assistance!

OK, here's the poop on the 7000SXT valve body. You can pipe it either 3/4", 1" or 1-1/4" Note the flow capacity which is up to 35 gpm which is way beyond most residential use. At the top of the page is the installation manual and the specifications also. 32K is good but you may want to go 48K due if you have extremely cold water and it will regenerate less often. I use 60 gallons per person though a lot of web dealer sites say 70 or 75 however, most folks have backed off on their water use and of course, low flow shower heads and faucets have contributed to that figure as well. The actual difference between going with 60 or 70 though is pretty negligible in the long run. If you don't want the extra expense of the 7000SXT the 5600 will service you quite well also and is usually a bit less money. Me though, I like the 7000 series. It is an easy valve to service and a simple head to program. Best of luck to you and my apologies for the mess above.

BTW I checked out your link there. Nice site and you can plug anything in for numbers you want and it makes the correct adjustment. It's a whole lot easier than getting out the calculator ain't it?

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/en-us/Products/ResidentialControlValves/Fleck+7000SXT.htm
 
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Mialynette2003

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Well, skin problems and hair-washing issues certainly abound in a house with two women with long hair. Those two reasons alone (or should I say, my peace of mind frmo not having to listen about their "issues" might make it worth it, lol. Other than a little hardness (which, from my reading, is actually better for us in consumption), the water tastes/smells great. So with y'alls help, I think I will design/install a system that will handle my house.

So far, I am hearing a 32K resin tank, and a 7000SXT valve being recommended. I believe someone said the 7000 is a 1.25" valve, can I just reduce it down to 3/4"?

Are the calculations on this page accurate, as far as system sizing goes? http://www.apswater.com/water_softe...owerflow=2.5&grainshard=9&iron=0&perperson=80 Should I use 80, or 60 gals per person? That site recommends 32K, but is it truly big enough? If I want to have my system working around 6 lbs/cu ft, would a 48K be more appropriate? I'd much rather spend the few extra $$$ and get it right the first time.

Thanks for all the assistance!

What you need to consider is compensated hardness. With every part of iron, you will need to add hardness. Some people say 3 GPG for every parts of iron and others use 5 GPG. I use 3. Also the higher the hardness, the compensated hardnesss increases. This is to compensate for hardness ions that are not measured with a standard test kit. Hardness of 1-20, times the hardness by 1.1 to get the compensated hardness. 21-40, times by 1.2. Once you know what the compensated hardness is, times it by 60 (usage per day) times number of people and times by 7 days. This should be the size system you should get. Be carefull when dealing with a lot of iron. The resin should be regenerated more often with a lot of iron. I have never dealt with the Fleck 7000 valve, but the Clack is a very user friendly valve.
 
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Akpsdvan

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Well, skin problems and hair-washing issues certainly abound in a house with two women with long hair. Those two reasons alone (or should I say, my peace of mind frmo not having to listen about their "issues" might make it worth it, lol. Other than a little hardness (which, from my reading, is actually better for us in consumption), the water tastes/smells great. So with y'alls help, I think I will design/install a system that will handle my house.

So far, I am hearing a 32K resin tank, and a 7000SXT valve being recommended. I believe someone said the 7000 is a 1.25" valve, can I just reduce it down to 3/4"?

Are the calculations on this page accurate, as far as system sizing goes? http://www.apswater.com/water_softe...owerflow=2.5&grainshard=9&iron=0&perperson=80 Should I use 80, or 60 gals per person? That site recommends 32K, but is it truly big enough? If I want to have my system working around 6 lbs/cu ft, would a 48K be more appropriate? I'd much rather spend the few extra $$$ and get it right the first time.

Thanks for all the assistance!

A 48k unit or 1.5 cubic foot would be better in the long run.
Setting the system up for 9lbs and 31,000 grain capacity.
The gallons per person per day.. there is a good one, some will say 75 , I start with 60gallons per person per day as a starting point, every house hold usage is different.
1" is standard for most Homes today, while 3/4 was years ago.
 

ditttohead

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I concur on the 1.5 cubic foot system set to 9 pounds of salt. The 7000SXT can be order with either plastic 3/4" threaded connectors, or 3/4" sweat connectors to meet your needs. The valve is extremely simple to service, but rarely needs to be touched. The valve has bee n out for over a deaced, and I still rarely sell any parts for it.

I use an average of 45 gallons of water per person per day. What do you guys use, (those who currently live in a house). I have automated touchfree faucets in the resatrooms, ultra low flush toilets, my wife and I shower together every day to save water, ultra high efficiency laundry and dishwasher, my three daughters take a bath or shower daily. So our water usage is fairly normal, other than a highly modernized, efficient water use devices, so the old standard of 75 gallons per person is very high.
 

Tom Sawyer

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I'm still using 60 gpd. Mostly because of a bit of a fudge factor. Remember when we were at 80+. Still, teenage girls can trash your best calculations with those hour long showers.
 

Akpsdvan

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Was told once by some who did septic systems, for every single teenager, double the people count or 2 people for the price of one.
 

ditttohead

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lol, we do yell at our 14 year old when she gets in the shower. The 3 and 6 year olds typically take a bath and we set the tankless water heater to 20 gallons fill cycles then it shuts off the bath. Maybe I should set my oldest daughters shower to 10 gallons, :)
 

Akpsdvan

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Wait til the girl takes a shower before school and then shortly after getting home from school...

Setting the limit at 10gallons would work til one forgets to change it back and the wife takes the shower with only 10, or the daughter inlists your wifes help in taking you to task for setting a low setting..

I have learned over the past ,, Never upset the Ladies of the house... doing so means that life will not be good for some time.
 
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