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Thread: Acid Neutralizer suggestions

  1. #16
    Licensed Plumber Superplum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superplum View Post
    Captive air/bladder tanks usually have a galvanized steel inlet elbow on the bottom. This is where they tend to get pin holes when subjected to corrosive water. If the tank is under warranty, it will be covered since the elbow is considered part of the tank. Of course you still have to change the tank. I have never been able to replace one of these elbows without damaging the bladder. You still have to remove the tank & lay it down to try. The control tee, check valve, & all the other components are brass. Brass is highly sensitive to corrosion. Despite all that I still would not install an up flow, down flow, softener, cartridge filter, shut off valve or anything else that could restrict the flow before the pressure tank/pressure switch. Only a retention tank if needed would be suitable for this location. For those who don,t know, a retention tank is only a water tank piped so as not to retain air (in the bottom out the top usually) with an injector fitting on the incoming pipe. I use fiberglass tanks with plastic pipe for this as it stands up to corrosion.
    The first part of my post wound up within Gary s quote for some reason;
    Originally Posted by Gary Slusser

    DIYers, any time you use a sacrificial mineral filter to neutralize acidic water, you will add some hardness to the water. Usually not more than 4-8 gpg.

    So if you start out with 4-8 gpg you wind up with 8-16gpg & should use a softener.

    Any type combo unit (tank over tank) is very difficult to work on if you need to replace mineral or resin. And to backwash mineral you need high gpm, that may damage resin in the softener part by wearing down the beads due to friction. The combo being mentioned is the Master Water Treatment brand and is only sold through plumbers and well drillers and they purchase it from their supply houses; it is not sold online.

    You commented on a 20 year old Master NS-10 combo unit in another thread. It had a brine draw problem (simple to fix) & now it's working fine. I have units out there older than that & have not had the problems you're talking about. What's wrong with a DYIer buying from a local supplier and doing his own installation? Where will he be buying the 50lb box's of NS mix (calcium & Magnesium) or calcite to service it, online? How much is shipping on that item? I have seen other makes of combo units sold online for those who think online is the only way to shop.

    IMO a separate backwashed type of filter, mixed bed [< 6.0 pH] or regular mineral [=> 6.0 pH] is much better than an an UPflow filter or solution feeder and retention tank

    I agree for the solution feeder/retention tank, when a neutral PH can achieved this way. If not (usually due to high TDS) they will still be getting blue/green stains & corrosion. What do you tell them then?

    Captive air/bladder type pressure tanks do not need protecting from acidic or any other type water because they have an internal epoxy coating and impervious 'bladder'. Non glass lined galvanized tanks don't have that protection.

  2. #17
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superplum View Post
    Captive air/bladder tanks usually have a galvanized steel inlet elbow on the bottom. This is where they tend to get pin holes when subjected to corrosive water. If the tank is under warranty, it will be covered since the elbow is considered part of the tank.
    I did well pump and pressure tank service for many years in PA where we had very acidic water. I do not recall that I ever saw an elbow on a pressure tank leaking due to pin holes. The tanks I sold had SS elbows. I don't think I ever replaced an tank elbow but I replaced a lot of homemade galvanized 'Tees' with brass. I had 2 24" pipe wrenches and I'd turn the tank upside down in a new tank box to do it.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #18
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superplum View Post
    The first part of my post wound up within Gary s quote for some reason;
    Originally Posted by Gary Slusser

    DIYers, any time you use a sacrificial mineral filter to neutralize acidic water, you will add some hardness to the water. Usually not more than 4-8 gpg.

    So if you start out with 4-8 gpg you wind up with 8-16gpg & should use a softener.

    Any type combo unit (tank over tank) is very difficult to work on if you need to replace mineral or resin. And to backwash mineral you need high gpm, that may damage resin in the softener part by wearing down the beads due to friction. The combo being mentioned is the Master Water Treatment brand and is only sold through plumbers and well drillers and they purchase it from their supply houses; it is not sold online.

    You commented on a 20 year old Master NS-10 combo unit in another thread. It had a brine draw problem (simple to fix) & now it's working fine. I have units out there older than that & have not had the problems you're talking about. What's wrong with a DYIer buying from a local supplier and doing his own installation? Where will he be buying the 50lb box's of NS mix (calcium & Magnesium) or calcite to service it, online? How much is shipping on that item? I have seen other makes of combo units sold online for those who think online is the only way to shop.

    IMO a separate backwashed type of filter, mixed bed [< 6.0 pH] or regular mineral [=> 6.0 pH] is much better than an an UPflow filter or solution feeder and retention tank

    I agree for the solution feeder/retention tank, when a neutral PH can achieved this way. If not (usually due to high TDS) they will still be getting blue/green stains & corrosion. What do you tell them then?

    Captive air/bladder type pressure tanks do not need protecting from acidic or any other type water because they have an internal epoxy coating and impervious 'bladder'. Non glass lined galvanized tanks don't have that protection.
    There's nothing wrong with a DIYer buying from a local dealer as long as the dealer will sell them repair parts instead of insisting only they can do the repair. At the same time the price from a local dealer should be much higher than an online dealer even with the shipping because the local dealer has much higher overhead than an online dealer does.

    A combo unit is very difficult to replace resin in and IMO dealing with many DIYers since 1992, most will not be able to do it without problems. I used to sell combo units way back when, I didn't like them because you are combing filtration with softening resin at much different flow rates. And short customers had a tough time reaching the control valve... LOL
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    So you are saying an UPflow AN something can't block up. I know they can.
    Perhaps you can share how you know this. Was it something you put in or maybe personally serviced. How was the upflow installed and what kind of well pump was used? Shallow well? I would be interested to hear about your experience here.

  5. #20
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    As you know when you are not playing cute... all it takes is anything that can block up the teen tiny slits in the bottom basket. That is why a prefilter is prescribed before an UPflow something. BTW, most people call them an AN filter.

    Some people, mostly plumbers and drillers but homeowners too, don't install a prefilter. I've torn them out and replaced them with a backwashed version.

    Tell me, you really don't know how they are plumbed into the plumbing? And... what difference does it make as to what kind of pump, or well, the person has?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #21
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Gary Slusser;341975]

    Some people, mostly plumbers and drillers but homeowners too, don't install a prefilter. I've torn them out and replaced them with a backwashed version.


    OK, So "some plumbers, drillers and homeowners" don't install a pre-filter. That just about covers most of the folks installing so who exactly does install a pre-filter. I wish you would stop making blanket statements designed to malign whole groups of people. BTW, I have always installed a pre-filter with and upflow AN filter because the instructions are pretty clear in telling you that you need to so a better statement on your part would be "people that don't read directions don't install a pre-filter" Oh and internet dealers don't install anything.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  7. #22
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Tom Sawyer;341981]
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post

    Some people, mostly plumbers and drillers but homeowners too, don't install a prefilter. I've torn them out and replaced them with a backwashed version.


    OK, So "some plumbers, drillers and homeowners" don't install a pre-filter. That just about covers most of the folks installing so who exactly does install a pre-filter. I wish you would stop making blanket statements designed to malign whole groups of people. BTW, I have always installed a pre-filter with and upflow AN filter because the instructions are pretty clear in telling you that you need to so a better statement on your part would be "people that don't read directions don't install a pre-filter" Oh and internet dealers don't install anything.
    Hey man, there ya go gettin' all girlie again. If you don't like how I write, don't read my posts, we'll both be much happier but that vision of you, a MASTER plumber since ya was a boy in daddy's shop 3-4 decades ago reading installation plumbing instructions, now THAT'S FUNNY!!

    BTW, you quote about as good as you troubleshoot. Probably because troubleshooting instructions can't cover all possibilities so they only list the most basic things to look for and the rest is over your capability. LOL there's that visual of you standing there leaning left reading troubleshooting instructions!! Ya know, you can worry about that instead of who did/does or didn't/doesn't do whatever.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  8. #23
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Fortunately, little is required by way of reply as your behavior perfectly illuminates the man you are and the credibility your posts should be afforded.

    Your ability to "quote" is known far and wide, how special for you. The only reason I don't follow your example is because I know it pisses you off and gives you a false sense of superiority as do 90% of your posts as of late. LOL

    (Quote Slussman) BTW, you quote about as good(The word you need here is well) as you troubleshoot. Probably because troubleshooting instructions can't(don't or do not) cover all possibilities so they only list the most basic things to look for and the rest is over your capability(Abilities would be the correct word here). LOL there's that visual of you standing there leaning left reading troubleshooting instructions!!(there is no such thing as troubleshooting "instructions") Ya (you) know, you can worry about that instead of who did/does or didn't/doesn't do whatever.

    You write about as eloquently as a 4th grader LOL
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 04-21-2012 at 07:31 AM.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  9. #24
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Fortunately, little is required by way of reply as your behavior perfectly illuminates the man you are and the credibility your posts should be afforded.

    Your ability to "quote" is known far and wide, how special for you. The only reason I don't follow your example is because I know it pisses you off and gives you a false sense of superiority as do 90% of your posts as of late. LOL
    There ya go with the emotionally driven guessing again.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #25
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    All of the emotion here seems to be yours not mine Napoleon.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  11. #26
    Licensed Plumber Superplum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I did well pump and pressure tank service for many years in PA where we had very acidic water. I do not recall that I ever saw an elbow on a pressure tank leaking due to pin holes. The tanks I sold had SS elbows. I don't think I ever replaced an tank elbow but I replaced a lot of homemade galvanized 'Tees' with brass. I had 2 24" pipe wrenches and I'd turn the tank upside down in a new tank box to do it.
    The tanks most common in my area are Amtrol. These are the ones I was referring to (for pressure not retention tanks) I've been asking the local supply houses for years if they sold any with a ST/ST elbow. No one seems have or know of any. What brand uses a ST/ST elbow?

    An upside down compound pail works well if you can't reach the head of a combo unit (under 6' tall with head). You could probably even use a step ladder if you still can't reach it since combos use a lot less floor space (another bonus).

  12. #27
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superplum View Post
    The tanks most common in my area are Amtrol. These are the ones I was referring to (for pressure not retention tanks) I've been asking the local supply houses for years if they sold any with a ST/ST elbow. No one seems have or know of any. What brand uses a ST/ST elbow?

    An upside down compound pail works well if you can't reach the head of a combo unit (under 6' tall with head). You could probably even use a step ladder if you still can't reach it since combos use a lot less floor space (another bonus).
    I always sold Gould's tanks bought from the local Gould's pump distributor, can't recall the brand name they used.

    I'm 6' 4", most customers were shorter. I carried a folding 3 step stool in the van for when I was height challenged like when installing a 36" UV light high enough to get the lamp out the bottom, or commercial stuff. An upside down bucket is asking for a broken ankle etc..

    The local plumbers and drillers that sold Master through that Gould's distributor sold combo units with Autotrol valves. I serviced a few and sold a couple I bought from my water treatment distributor with Fleck valves but quit selling any with heavy mineral/resin. The only Autotrol valves I sold were the proportional brining upflow/counter current regenerated Technetic, 169, 269.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #28
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Nobody made or makes a diaphragm tank with a stainless steel elbow.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I always sold Gould's tanks bought from the local Gould's pump distributor, can't recall the brand name they used.

    I'm 6' 4", most customers were shorter. I carried a folding 3 step stool in the van for when I was height challenged like when installing a 36" UV light high enough to get the lamp out the bottom, or commercial stuff. An upside down bucket is asking for a broken ankle etc..

    The local plumbers and drillers that sold Master through that Gould's distributor sold combo units with Autotrol valves. I serviced a few and sold a couple I bought from my water treatment distributor with Fleck valves but quit selling any with heavy mineral/resin. The only Autotrol valves I sold were the proportional brining upflow/counter current regenerated Technetic, 169, 269.
    I've been using Guold pumps for over 35 years. I buy my tanks from the local Guold dealer. I don't believe Guold has ever made tanks. They used to sell jet pumps attached to a tank & sold as a unit but I don't believe they made the tanks. Those type of tanks wouldn't be suitable for a standard well set up any way.
    Just kidding about the compound bucket.

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    BTW, most people call them an AN filter.
    Are we going by what most people say, now?

    Yes, a downflow AN system can and does act as a filter. Often it is is used as a sediment filter to do a double duty and may even remove ferric iron and other matter from the water. But an AN system that uses upflow method is not a filter and is not meant to be one. That is what I thought we were talking about, perhaps you missed that.

    I would not use a 6" or 8" tank as an upflow but a 10", 12" or 13" tank may be used under that right circumstances. The type an power of well pump can and is an essential factor on the size of the tank and whether or not an upflow configuration is acceptable.

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