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View Poll Results: 13 year old Kinetico Model 60 or new Fleck 5600?

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  • 13 year old Kinetico Model 60 for $1,000

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Thread: Keep 13 year old Kinetico Model 60 or buy new Fleck? Opinions wanted!!

  1. #16
    DIY Junior Member Mateo's Avatar
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    So, can someone compare for me the real differences between Fleck 2510sxt, 5600sxt and 7000sxt? I'm finding very similar prices between these units.

  2. #17
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I'm going to jump in and side with dittohead here on the Fleck7000 valve. Though the 2510 and the 5600 are good valves I like the features of the 7000 better but.......in the long run it's not going to make a whole lot of difference either way. As for the Kinetico unit; although expensive and difficult to get hold of parts and the manual for they are none the less very good valves and are of exceptional quality and durability of function. If they were crap and priced as they are, they would have gone belly up a long time ago.

    BTW Watersolutions and Andy are definitely not the same entity. That's just more tin foil helmet talk.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member Mateo's Avatar
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    I appreciate the help and opinions....that's what I was asking for. Can't help with the number of the disc and must make my decision by Saturday. What I do know is the previous owner had 8 people in the house and is obviously pleased with how the unit has functioned for him. So, am I understanding correctly that this number to be found is adjusted according to the number of people in the household?

    About the water hardness, 15.7 gpg is what the city quoted me according to a 2010 or 2011 analysis.

  4. #19
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    If the Kinetico was set up for 8 people in the house you are going to want to have it adjusted for your demand because otherwise it will be regenerating more often than necessary which is ok for the unit but an unnecessary waste of water. I would guess that between what the PO wants for the unit and the charge to come out and re-program it, it is probably a smarter decision to let him take it with him and go with something new. Sorry about the thread bickering, we get a lot of that around here but in the end I suspect you have the information you need to make an informed decision.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  5. #20
    DIY Junior Member Mateo's Avatar
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    Tom, I'm leaning toward your recommendation although I'll haggle with the owner to see about coming down on the price of the old unit. Thanks for your opinion. Now I'm researching more about the differences between the different Fleck units.

    As for the forum banter...it's good for a laugh. I feel i'm still able to glean some decent information.

  6. #21
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    The Kinetico would have been more set up with the hardness in the water and not the 8 people, the 8 people would have the system changing tanks more often than 3 people using water.
    As for the Fleck valves in question.
    The 5600 and 2510 have upper flow rate limits of about 15gallons give or take a few, while the 7000 can under go some changes and reach flow rates of of 36gpm.
    So some thing to think about is what will the needs inside the house be in years to come.

  7. #22
    DIY Junior Member Mateo's Avatar
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    Our family of 4 will not be growing although of course we will have the occasional guest. I imagine flow rates of 15gpm would suffice, correct?

  8. #23
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    More than likely.
    The 5600 is simple to work on with no real tools needed to change the seals and spacers, while the 2510 can be done with out a special tool , that tool makes things easier.
    As it has been said about the Kinetico, if it is working and you can agree on a price it might be simpler to go with what is there.
    About the only thing on the kinetico would be the resin as you are on city water with chlorine and that does do a number on resin.. no matter who's resin is in the media tanks.
    There is with the current system the possibility that while it is working great right now, that might change in a years time to needing work from some thing simple to major....

  9. #24
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Regarding the 2510SXT, 5600, econominder, 5600SXT, 7000SXT, for flow rate it will have no bearing for your application. The older Kineticos are great valves, but not very high flow rate valves.

    5600 econominder, Fleck workhorse. It has been around for over 25 years with little change. The original design was so good that it is still one of my best sellers. I have used it extensively in small commercial applications. Its major flaw is an undersized drive motor, and lack of any electronics for automatic override, diagnostics, adjustable cycles, etc. Very basic valve. This is also a strength, simplicity is not a bad thing.

    5600SXT, an updated electronic version of the original. It is a fairly good valve. The electronis are strong, the drive train adequate, it still lacks the higher flows and backwash capabilities of the newer designs.

    2510SXT, my second favorite valve. This valve is based on the original Fleck commercial series. It has been updated with a Noryl (plastic) body, and it accomodates the old Fleck bypass. The older brass commercial valves that this valve is based on do not accomodate a standard bypass. Weakness, mechanical microswitches (these last 15-20 years), sandwich style meter ($150) not NEMA rated, other than that, nothing. Strengths, piston drive motor, extra strong piston drive motor should last longer than you or me.

    7000SXT, Fleck newest valve, (not including the valves that are being introduced tomorrow during the WQA, I will be in booth 1311 if anybody can make it by), a single valve to handle the smallest house to the largest house. Designed to replace the majority of the Fleck product line. It has massive backwash capabilities, NEMA rated for outdoor use, strong drive motor, no microswitches, ultra high flow bypass, soft water brine fill, multiple plumbing connection, can beprogrammed for brine fill first, very important for people who desire to use potasium Chloride, double backwash, and a 32MM manufold system. The 7000SXT is technically an 1-1/4 valve. Regardless of one persons opinion on this site, the 7000 is not too big for any house. Aesthetically, it is a large valve, so when it is installed on a smaller tank, it looks a little odd. Negatives, cant be used in a parralle tank application using a PTT (this is not an issue for 99.5% of people, but it is an issue Fleck is adressing in the future), Valve is larger than most, making installations a challenge when space is extremely limited (we are talking about installing it in place it should not be installed in anyway, again rarely an issue, but has come up), wont fit in any standard brine cabinet (why anyone uses a brine cabine is beyond me anyway), Attached transformer cord could be longer,

    Somebody on this site bought them the first day they came out over a decade ago, had a problem, and forever says it is a bad product, ignore this person. He has also not been directly involved inthe industry for years so his opinion on this valve is meaningless. I do agree that the 2510 was the best valve, prior to the 7000 coming out. There is a new valve being released in a few months, but it is a major redesign that should be given a year to be vetted. I will install a few in my families houses and will give you my opinion when I can give it honestly.

    Hope this helps!

  10. #25
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by water solutions View Post
    Sorry, Gary, mistaken again.
    Yeah I see Steve swearing to anything you deny, say, imply etc. but....

    Quote Originally Posted by water solutions View Post
    I know which tanks you have, the color, the size and the port diameter. I just wanted to know what disc number was there.
    Let's hear why you want to know the disc number in the control valve. Since the disc that's in it was due to the size of the previous family and there were 8 of them, do ya think to night have to be changed? And IYO will it require the one'n only local dealer to provide the replacement?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #26
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Let lose the Dogs of War.

    When does any twin care how many people there are in the house?

    Kinetico uses a disc number based on the capacity of the media and the dos of salt or other regen means and the quality of water that it is going treating.

    The fleck twins are much the same, the meter is set often 100 gallons lower than the capacity of the media of the water needing the treatment.

    All the number of 8 people on a twin will do is use the water than 4 people will use the water.

    A softener twin needs to be able to treat the water for 4 hours at a given flow rate divided into the capacity so that there is time for clean and time for salt to make the brine for the next tank change.

    So if the hardness has not changed for the starter of this thread from when the owner first put it in to today, then there is no need to change the disc in the system, the only reason for the disc to be changed is if the hardness has changed up or down from the day it was put in.

  12. #27
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Kinetico uses a disc number based on the capacity of the media and the dos of salt or other regen means and the quality of water that it is going treating.
    Yes I know, I have a Kinetico disc chart, and adjusting the salt dose lbs is done with their float/brine pickup tube and that sets the K of capacity and then the disc sets the number of gallons between regenerations.

    Andy wanted to know the disc number.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    The fleck twins are much the same, the meter is set often 100 gallons lower than the capacity of the media of the water needing the treatment.
    Not really. You are supposed to follow the instructions in the manual to figure how many gallons are used for the regeneration and subtract them from the meter.

    [QUOTE=Akpsdvan;336506]All the number of 8 people on a twin will do is use the water than 4 people will use the water.[quote]
    There must be a word missing there...

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    A softener twin needs to be able to treat the water for 4 hours at a given flow rate divided into the capacity so that there is time for clean and time for salt to make the brine for the next tank change.
    A..., the minimum length of time between regenerations is the time a regeneration runs for plus the 2 hrs for the refill water to dissolve the salt. Many softeners are in regeneration for much less than 2 hrs. A rule of thumb (that I never used) with twins is no more than 4 regenerations per day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    So if the hardness has not changed for the starter of this thread from when the owner first put it in to today, then there is no need to change the disc in the system, the only reason for the disc to be changed is if the hardness has changed up or down from the day it was put in.
    See above but I don't agree; the salt and water efficiency will suffer if the unit is not set up for the new family.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #28
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Not only the water in the cleaning cycle and brine refill , also gallons to be used while the unit is changing tanks.

    But what do I know, only talking with some one that was an engineer at Fleck and now at Clack, in talking and LISTENING to people with more years in the business than you and I have put together.

  14. #29
    DIY Junior Member Mateo's Avatar
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    OK....now with all the "banter" I'm getting lost in the discussion although I'm close to a decision thanks to your input. Thank you.

    Can we try another tack now? If you would be so kind (dittohead, akpsdvan, Gary, Water Solutions, mialynette and Tom Sawyer), please send me a PRIVATE MESSAGE and in 20 words or less, tell me what YOU would do in my situation if you did not want to make any further investment if you paid $1,000 for the kinetico OR were only willing to spend a max $550 to buy a new unit to replace the Kinetico. At this point I'm more interested in a concrete, succinct answer without the "why" or an explanation. I can always follow-up with more questions later if I want to know the why. I'm just trying to clear my head here.

  15. #30
    DIY Junior Member Mateo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mateo View Post
    OK....now with all the "banter" I'm getting lost in the discussion although I'm close to a decision thanks to your input. Thank you.

    Can we try another tack now? If you would be so kind (dittohead, akpsdvan, Gary, Water Solutions, mialynette and Tom Sawyer), please send me a PRIVATE MESSAGE and in 20 words or less, tell me what YOU would do in my situation if you did not want to make any further investment if you paid $1,000 for the kinetico OR were only willing to spend a max $550 to buy a new unit to replace the Kinetico. At this point I'm more interested in a concrete, succinct answer without the "why" or an explanation. I can always follow-up with more questions later if I want to know the why. I'm just trying to clear my head here.
    Ok...back to a summary of the opinions by the main contributors after wading through the mirk of their exchanges.

    Quotes by each:
    akpsdvan: I would change systems. Let him keep the Kinecto and start anew. 5600SXT or 7000SXT with 1.5cubic or 48K.
    Tom Sawyer: I would go with a new unit. A Fleck anything is going to give you many years of trouble free service
    mialynette2003: I would go with a new unit Try looking at the Clack valve. it is very efficient and user friendly.
    dittohead:New 5600 econominder. Bulletproof, parts readily available, fairly efficient, you will not be disappointed.
    Gary Slusser: "Offer him $400 [for the Kinetico]....A Fleck 5600 will last as long as a Kinetico control valve"
    water solutions: Kinetico

    Thanks again to each for your input.

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