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Thread: Measuring electrical useage

  1. #16
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    I am sorry my friend but those items in red above is not Green Tech.

    Green Tech means that there is no fossil fuel being used.

    My wall paper in Green Technology came from NC State University.
    Green Technology is partly about the carbon foot print released into the atmosphere. Fossil fuel such as burning wood leaves a very large carbon foot print therefore it is not Green Technology.

    When did wood become a fossil fuel ?
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  2. #17
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    When did wood become a fossil fuel ?
    Because only old fossils still use wood?

  3. #18
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    When did wood become a fossil fuel ?
    You are right about wood not being a fossil fuel but although this is a little long you can see that wood burning is placed in the same category as fossil fuel when it comes to our planet. Also bear in mind that as we cut trees to burn it takes several years for a seedling to be able to replace or diminish the carbon that the burnt tree made.

    By Beth Daley
    GLOBE STAFF
    Burning wood to generate electricity can be worse for global warming than burning coal, according to a Massachusetts-sponsored study released yesterday. That surprising conclusion immediately prompted state officials to reconsider substantial financial incentives provided to wood-burning plants.
    The six-month study by the Manomet Center for Conservation Sciences in Plymouth comes amid controversy over the proposed construction of two large wood-burning power plants in Western Massachusetts.
    “These findings have broad implications for clean energy and the environment in Massachusetts and beyond," said Ian Bowles, state secretary of Energy and Environmental Affairs.
    Wood-burning has been promoted as a “green” energy source because growing forests can absorb the same amount of greenhouse gases that are emitted from burning wood, essentially canceling out the pollutants.
    But the Manomet study shows that wood burning releases more heat-trapping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere per unit of energy than oil, coal, or natural gas.
    What's more, that increase in greenhouse gases can take a far longer time for forests to absorb than previously thought -- a generation or more in many cases. If a wood-burning power plant replaces a coal-fired one, it can take about 20 years before any net benefits are realized. It can take more than 90 years if a wood-burning plant replaces a natural gas plant.
    The study has important implications for policy as President Obama aims to lower US greenhouse gas emissions some 80 percent by 2050 to avoid the most serious consequences of manmade climate change. Wood is projected to be one of the fastest growing sources of renewable energy in the next decade, but if the benefits take too long to appear, policy makers under urgent deadlines may choose not to embrace it.
    Advocates of wood-burning said that they had not had time to read the full study but that burning wood is renewable and has been viewed as such for years.
    “This industry, which has been around for 30 years, takes forest byproducts and combusts them in a way that is carbon neutral," said Bob Cleaves, president of the Biomass Power Association, a national industry group based in Maine.
    Matt Wolfe of Madera Energy Inc., which is proposing a wood-burning power plant in Greenfield, said the study incorrectly assumes whole trees would be cut to fuel the power plants. Rather, he said, most wood for his plant would come from tree tops and branches left over from logging operations or from storm damage, land clearing for new development, or tree-trimming operations.
    “The study is not representative on how we plan to operate,’’ he said.
    The Manomet Center analysis, however, concludes that there is only a small amount of such leftover wood, and that whole trees will have to be taken to fuel Massachusetts wood-burning power plants.
    The study indicates wood-burning still may make sense in certain cases. For example, heating buildings with wood is more efficient than wood-burning power plants, and it can start helping the environment by reducing greenhouse gas emissions in as little as five years.
    Wood-burning’s environmental benefits can vary significantly, depending on the type of wood or piece of tree being burned, what kind of fossil fuel it is replacing, what type of energy it is producing, and how people manage forests, according to Tom Walker, the study team leader. Many, but not all, types of wood-burning create a “carbon debt” that growing forests gradually repay by reabsorbing gases before a “carbon dividend” begins.
    Massachusetts has offered financial incentives for wood-burning power plants since 2002, considering them to be part of a portfolio of renewable power along with wind and solar. By 2020, state electricity suppliers will be required to get 15 percent of their energy from such green sources. Without the credits, wood-burning is not competitive with more traditional forms of energy.
    But when two large wood-burning (also called biomass) plants were proposed a few year later, in Russell and the one in Greenfield, a large and vocal group of residents opposed them, claiming they would be fueled by cutting trees on public and private lands across Massachusetts.
    The controversy reached a crescendo last year, and in December, the state Department of Energy Resources suspended incentives for new wood-burning plants until the Manomet study could be completed. Now that it is, Bowles said his agency will publicly review the study this summer, and develop new rulesin the fall. The suspension of credits for new plants will continue until then.
    The study counters earlier estimates showing there is plenty of wood available for wood-burning power plants in the state, saying there would not be enough sustainably harvested wood to fuel even one large wood-burning plant. Walker said the study tried to look at what was “economically and socially available” from the forests, meaning in part what landowners would realistically sell.
    Jana S. Chicoine, who has led the fight against the Russell plant, said she was pleased at the findings, calling the study a “policy earthquake. We always made the case this was not a NIMBY issue but a policy failure and now we have the state saying exactly the same thing,” she said.
    John Hagan, president of the Manomet Center, said the report leaves policy-makers with key questions.
    “Do you want to wait 10, 20, 30 years just to get to the point (wood-burning) is as good as coal. That is a real social question: Do we as a society want to make the climate worse before it gets better?”

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    All thats great but the original poster already burns wood. He just wants to get the most out of the wood he is going to be burning.

  5. #20
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    quote; It is a water heater or if an adjective is used to describe the appliance it would be a cold water heater. The appliance heats cold water not hot water.

    You are trying to be "cute", (or channeling George Carlin, because he made that arguement decades ago. He also wondered why we drive on parkways and park in driveways, among other things. ). As soon as the heater comes on, the water is no longer "cold". Therefore it is a "tepid, then warm water heater" but at some point the water WILL be hot, and if the heater is still operating it WILL be a "hot water heater".
    Last edited by hj; 03-07-2012 at 05:23 AM.
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

  6. #21
    Nuclear Engineer nukeman's Avatar
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    There is no such thing as "cold" anyway. Cold is only used to talk about a lack of heat, but it is all relative anyway. Water at 40F is smoking hot compared to the temperature of liquid N2.

  7. #22
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Because only old fossils still use wood?
    That is funny, but may be true.

    I burn wood for the pleasure of Smell and Looks.
    I guess that is something us Old Farts do.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nukeman View Post
    There is no such thing as "cold" anyway. Cold is only used to talk about a lack of heat, but it is all relative anyway. Water at 40F is smoking hot compared to the temperature of liquid N2.
    This is why plumbing codes contain a section called "Definitions"

  9. #24
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    I burn wood for the pleasure of Smell and Looks.
    I guess that is something us Old Farts do.
    When I was a kid, I used to make fires to entertain myself. Catch a kid doing that now, and he's going to detention.
    I can make a fire out of almost nothing. It's a pretty good laugh to watch a show like Survivor and see how incapable the contestants are about making a fire to boil water. I thought that was stuff you learned as a kid.

    Our Summer place heated with a wood stove, and we had wood everywhere and hatchets and axes and brush clearing axes. We also had a large wood pile at home, with an axe handy if we wanted to split wood. I don't remember my parents caring if I was splitting wood in first grade. I just had to be home by dinner time.

    My spell checker doesn't recognize the word axe. Is it such a strange concept now, that the people that write computer programs haven't used the word before?


    Rounding up wood to split scavenged from the lake in the 60's
    Last edited by Terry; 03-09-2012 at 01:44 PM.

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