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Thread: Radiant heating/woodstove

  1. #16
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    Couldn't find an online access to the ETLM listing for 80-08-109 to know what level of UL testing was performed to know what it really covers.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post


    Couldn't find an online access to the ETLM listing for 80-08-109 to know what level of UL testing was performed to know what it really covers.
    So what did they do...listed it and give it the stamp but then in the fine print say it cant be used? LOL

    Until you can find somthing that says it cant be used.......I'd drop it.

    I cant prove everything.......lol

  3. #18
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Before anyone buys a hilcoil - PM me, I have govt surplus SS rigs with about 3 or 4 loops, looks like submarine quality. Also a pile of palleted heat exchangers, also gov surplus, about 4x4 feet with a beautiful 120v long and quiet fan included. Top quality brass and copper coils. had so many, scrapped a few - but they are new. Think I got 450$ for one rig. We - our govt. paid over 12,000$ for each. I'll try and post a pic soon of these - really useful for utilizing wood heat with water.

    A great system would be a section of stovepipe wrapped with that sewer water flat copper pipe that Dana has posted for shower drains.

    I'll carve a potato "UL" stamp and mark my rigs for you. Like the chinese do.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    Before anyone buys a hilcoil - PM me, I have govt surplus SS rigs with about 3 or 4 loops, looks like submarine quality. Also a pile of palleted heat exchangers, also gov surplus, about 4x4 feet with a beautiful 120v long and quiet fan included. Top quality brass and copper coils. had so many, scrapped a few - but they are new. Think I got 450$ for one rig. We - our govt. paid over 12,000$ for each. I'll try and post a pic soon of these - really useful for utilizing wood heat with water.

    A great system would be a section of stovepipe wrapped with that sewer water flat copper pipe that Dana has posted for shower drains.

    I'll carve a potato "UL" stamp and mark my rigs for you. Like the chinese do.
    I would love to see some pics of those exchangers when you get a chance. Very cool.

  5. #20
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    As I said earlier, MA is very particular about what gets used and approved in their state... http://license.reg.state.ma.us/pubLi...b_pre_form.asp

    If it's not on their approved list, you'll have troubles. Not to say you can't try to get it approved, but if not already done, it can be a pain. Hilcoil gets no hits for approved products.
    Jim DeBruycker
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    As I said earlier, MA is very particular about what gets used and approved in their state... http://license.reg.state.ma.us/pubLi...b_pre_form.asp

    If it's not on their approved list, you'll have troubles. Not to say you can't try to get it approved, but if not already done, it can be a pain. Hilcoil gets no hits for approved products.
    Those are plumbing approvals. Not sure if they would consider it plumbing. Anyway its made by Thermo-Bilt Inc. not Hilkoil.

    How much water do you think 20' of 3/4" stainless sch 40 would hold?

    Are pressure cookers legal in Maine? The biggest pressure cooker will hold how much water? You know some people actually cook on woodstoves.

    You know I think you guys are onto somthing big here.......you dont think they photoshopped that approval and just slapped it on their website? Lordy I hope not.

    ADD>.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...V

    I was looking over the Maine website. Those people are flippin crazy with all their crazy rules and laws.

    Read this. Pay very close attention to the last paragraph. Read what they consider a "meal" and how you must eat it. LOL CRAZY
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........................................

    2.18: Resealing of Partially Consumed Bottles of Wine
    (1)
    No holder of a restaurant type license issued pursuant to the provisions of M.G.L. c. 138, 12 and no holder of a hotel type license issued pursuant to the provisions of M.G.L. c. 138, 12 shall permit a patron to retain and take off the licensed premises so much of a bottle of wine purchased by that patron with a meal and not totally consumed by that patron during the meal, except when the bottle of wine is re-sealed in compliance with 204 CMR 2.18.
    (2)
    Only one partially consumed bottle of wine per patron may be resealed and removed from the restaurant or hotel licensed premises pursuant to 204 CMR 2.18.
    (3)
    A receipt that prominently displays the date of the purchase of the meal must be furnished to the patron. The receipt must show both the purchase of the meal and the purchase of the bottle of wine.
    (4)
    Before permitting the carry out of a bottle of wine pursuant to 204 CMR 2.18, the holder of a restaurant type license or its employees or the holder of a hotel type license or its employees must:
    (a)
    securely reseal the bottle of wine;
    (b)
    place the resealed bottle in a one-time-use tamper-proof transparent bag that insures that the patron cannot gain access to the bottle while in transit after the bag is sealed;
    (c)
    securely seal the bag; and
    (d)
    affix the receipt to the sealed bag.
    (5)
    For the purpose of 204 CMR 2.18, the word “meal” shall mean the purchase by one person of a diversified selection of food which ordinarily is classified as an "entree" or "main course" which ordinarily cannot be consumed without the use of tableware and which cannot be conveniently consumed while standing or walking or the purchase by two or more persons of a diversified selection of food which is priced at more than $20.00 and ordinarily cannot be consumed without the use of tableware and which cannot be conveniently consumed while standing or walking.
    Last edited by Hackney plumbing; 03-01-2012 at 02:40 PM.

  7. #22
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Doesn't really matter whether you like it or not...

    My sister moved to England for awhile. They require ALL gas burning appliances to be inspected and recertified multiple times per year. Now, how'd you like to pay someone to do that on a regular basis or they shut your gas off.

    She had some appliances delivered, but federal safety rules prohibit them from carrying anything up more than two steps. They are required to use a stair climbing machine for things exceeding a certain weight, and that requires at least a 4' landing so it can maneuver and remain stable. Their old house didn't have large enough landings, and they ended up carrying the things up themselves. Rules are the rules...if you don't like them, either move, or petition to have them changed.

    It's not necessarily whether something would work or not, but MA laws have made it illegal to use something in certain classes of products that they haven't already approved for use. Just like CA has certain rules on cars, MA does to, and the list goes on.
    Last edited by jadnashua; 03-01-2012 at 02:54 PM.
    Jim DeBruycker
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    Doesn't really matter whether you like it or not...

    My sister moved to England for awhile. They require ALL gas burning appliances to be inspected and recertified multiple times per year. Now, how'd you like to pay someone to do that on a regular basis or they shut your gas off.

    She had some appliances delivered, but federal safety rules prohibit them from carrying anything up more than two steps. They are required to use a stair climbing machine for things exceeding a certain weight, and that requires at least a 4' landing so it can maneuver and remain stable. Their old house didn't have large enough landings, and they ended up carrying the things up themselves. Rules are the rules...if you don't like them, either move, or petition to have them changed.

    It's not necessarily whether something would work or not, but MA laws have made it illegal to use something in certain classes of products that they haven't already approved for use. Just like CA has certain rules on cars, MA does to, and the list goes on.
    It doesn't matter if I like it or not? No kidding,thats kind of stating the obvious. I dont live there. Thank Jesus.

    I still say the Hikoil is allowed for use in Maine,they bought and paid for their approval of their bent stainless sch 40 pipe. Thats what that approval is for,not so a guy can buy it and mount it on his wall over his fireplace. Its not art....lol

  9. #24
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    The "approval" may be very application specific- without the document in hand I wouldn't put much stock in the letters U and L in a circle on a 12 cent label. Modifying a wood stove in any significant way (like cutting holes in it) is also of dubious code compliance and insuarablity (even in Maine), even if the bent pipe you jam in there has valid safety agency labeling. Building something out of all UL-approved parts does not mean the result would pass a relevant UL safety test for the application.

    Pressure cookers are legal in MA, but the burner under it is a fraction of the output of a wood stove, and the water supply is a fixed amount, so it's not really the best analogy.

    No Thermo-Bilt products appear on the MA approvals list, so for at least this case it can be used as art over the fireplace, but not IN the fireplace (or anywhere else) if connected to potable or heating system plumbing.

    Jim- thanks for the link to the MA list! (It's handy for convincing some skeptics that drainwater heat recovery heat exchangers are in fact code-legal here.)

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    So now that you've spent what...3 days now trying to convince everyone how its not approved even tho it has the label.

    Try spending 3 minutes explaining to everyone how dangerous this loop is and why.

    After that try to find ONE that has actually blown up and post a link to the discussion.

    Goodluck with that.

    Have you ever considered the loop would be for experimental use? You know its very difficult to stop people from experimenting within their own home.......I dont care where ya live. I have no idea but they are sold and I'm buying one. I know how to install relief valves.

  11. #26
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    If you really want one, then that time might be better spent convincing the agency that approves things for MA. Until then, your argument is pointless. Not saying I agree with MA and the way they do things (I purposly live over the border in NH), but they have their own way of doing things...don't like it, leave or vote! Water, when it expands into steam, gets 1600x larger. If it does that explosively, even a small amount can create lots of schrapnel. A simple coil, with no safety controls in an uncontrolled fire box is simply asking for trouble. A coil in and of itself is only one component, and while it may pass tests under some controlled circumstances, an open fire box is not one of them.
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  12. #27
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    The biggest safety & sanity question marks are about the DIY hack to the wood stove more so than the heat exchanger itself, and in places that care more about stack emissions, whether the hack changes the validity of the EPA tests. I can believe that some hacks will change the stove sufficiently to affect emissions, most won't, but that's an opinion, whereas agency labeling requires testing.

    While they allege that it exceeds ASME & ASTM standards, it carries no ASME & ASTM labels, and it's fair to ask "Why not?".

    I'm not saying it isn't labeled at all, only that we have no idea the testing for what it's labeled for, and whether that's sufficient protection from liability for a DIY installation. There is an entire Bible of UL tests that are only relevant to particular applications- the label they use is cryptic about which UL standard it met. (I've designed many grid connected electronic items that bear a UL label, but some with a UL label for one application would fail miserably in a similar related application.) The UL labeling may begin and end with the pressure testing of the unit itself, independently of the real world potable and heating systems it might realistically be attached to might handler, or it could be more application-specific relative to pumped or convective loops for heating the water in a hot water tank, we simply can't tell. I DO know that some inspectors in my town would have a hissy-fit and condemn the heating system were it discovered, and require that it be removed and re-inspected before signing off on the system. YMMV. (This type of inspector is by no means a MA-only phenomenon- I've dealt with similar in WA and IL.)

    It's a lot simpler from a code & labeling point of view if the wood stove was manufactured tested & EPA/other certified with the integral coil rather than as a retrofit hack.

  13. #28
    DIY Junior Member quarry's Avatar
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    use as many transfer plates as you can !!!. Trust me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    The biggest safety & sanity question marks are about the DIY hack to the wood stove more so than the heat exchanger itself, and in places that care more about stack emissions, whether the hack changes the validity of the EPA tests. I can believe that some hacks will change the stove sufficiently to affect emissions, most won't, but that's an opinion, whereas agency labeling requires testing.

    While they allege that it exceeds ASME & ASTM standards, it carries no ASME & ASTM labels, and it's fair to ask "Why not?".

    I'm not saying it isn't labeled at all, only that we have no idea the testing for what it's labeled for, and whether that's sufficient protection from liability for a DIY installation. There is an entire Bible of UL tests that are only relevant to particular applications- the label they use is cryptic about which UL standard it met. (I've designed many grid connected electronic items that bear a UL label, but some with a UL label for one application would fail miserably in a similar related application.) The UL labeling may begin and end with the pressure testing of the unit itself, independently of the real world potable and heating systems it might realistically be attached to might handler, or it could be more application-specific relative to pumped or convective loops for heating the water in a hot water tank, we simply can't tell. I DO know that some inspectors in my town would have a hissy-fit and condemn the heating system were it discovered, and require that it be removed and re-inspected before signing off on the system. YMMV. (This type of inspector is by no means a MA-only phenomenon- I've dealt with similar in WA and IL.)

    It's a lot simpler from a code & labeling point of view if the wood stove was manufactured tested & EPA/other certified with the integral coil rather than as a retrofit hack.
    So your saying everything must be purchased as a complete unit,yeah ok uh huh. LOL

    You dont think when they gave the approval and the label you posted above it wasn't tested AS ITS INTENDED USE? Sure it was.

    Hey its easy enough to present the Hilkoil to an inspector,explain your plan and work together. Your alittle too wrapped up into proving somthing that you cant........everythings not online and you dont know everything......so your giving your opinion. Fine with me your entitled to your opinion,no one is saying your not.

    If you dont like the Hilkoils then dont use it,its ok with me. But dont try to state that they are not approved period and anyone who uses it is a hack.....thats kinda arrogant and ignorant at the same time.

  15. #30
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    And when have you practiced your trade in MA? Have a license there? Know how they work? Without knowing what the test was for, what conditions it was used for, you're blowing smoke. MA is a different world...they do things their own way. The only way to know for sure is to ask the inspector in the locality.
    Jim DeBruycker
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