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Thread: Concerned over Backpressure by Adding a CSV Valve to Existing System

  1. #16
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    20 years ago I was told by an engineer at Franklin that the average life of a submersible is 7 years. I don't think they will admit that anymore. I confirmed that number many times by datecoding the mountain of pumps and motors I hauled to the scrap metal place every year, of which some were professionally installed and some were not. Motors that were made 30 years ago will be twice as long, twice as heavy, and last many times longer than a new motor. The only goal now is to produce a pump/motor cheaper than your competitor. Sand and sediment not withstanding, motors are designed to survive a certain number of cycles. The sooner you use up those cycles, the sooner you will need a new pump.

  2. #17
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    My own Goulds 1/2 - 7gpm has been in the hole close to 30 years now and still works just fine.
    My Goulds was still running after 12 years when I pulled it out of the hole, but the wet end was all worn out and I could not find parts to rebuild it. I'm hoping to find one with a bad motor and marry the two halves. In the meantime, I'm keeping it to overpump my well to wash out sediment.

    I don't get why some folk are so determined to try and discredit the value of a CSV. Reducing cycling can't be a bad thing and constant pressure has to be better than the ups and downs of a traditional system. I wish I could use a CSV and have higher pressure and volume but the damn micronizer I have for iron fitering prevents it.

    Oh and.........I don't sell pumps, I buy pumps. I also don't sell CSVs.

  3. #18
    In the Trades Plumber111's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    My Goulds was still running after 12 years when I pulled it out of the hole, but the wet end was all worn out and I could not find parts to rebuild it. I'm hoping to find one with a bad motor and marry the two halves. In the meantime, I'm keeping it to overpump my well to wash out sediment.

    I don't get why some folk are so determined to try and discredit the value of a CSV. Reducing cycling can't be a bad thing and constant pressure has to be better than the ups and downs of a traditional system. I wish I could use a CSV and have higher pressure and volume but the damn micronizer I have for iron fitering prevents it.

    Oh and.........I don't sell pumps, I buy pumps. I also don't sell CSVs.
    I don't know if it is as much wanting to discredit as it is attempting to understand both systems to be able to always provide the best solution.

  4. #19
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I have never discredited them and when I was installing irrigation systems in Florida they were pretty much the standard but they are not necessarily a necessity in every situation. If the pump and tank were properly sized in the first place a CSV will have little if any effect on either the longevity or the cost of operation.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  5. #20
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    I don't get why some folk are so determined to try and discredit the value of a CSV. Reducing cycling can't be a bad thing and constant pressure has to be better than the ups and downs of a traditional system. I wish I could use a CSV and have higher pressure and volume but the damn micronizer I have for iron fitering prevents it.
    Not trying to discredit, but to sort out where it pays back. A 20 HP pump that replaces a water tower with a csv is a no brainer saver. At grannys cabin, looks like a stretch to me.

    You can use a Pressure reducing valve and a high outside pressure to get true constant pressure for 50 bucks.

    What sort of micronizer wont take a high pressure?

    My csv is about 80+ psi outside and a prv at the house.

    20 years ago I was told by an engineer at Franklin that the average life of a submersible is 7 years. I don't think they will admit that anymore. I confirmed that number many times by datecoding the mountain of pumps and motors I hauled to the scrap metal place every year, of which some were professionally installed and some were not.
    An "average" is quickly brought down to 7 from 20 or 30 years when we count that most people dont even know where their pressure tank is at. And fewer yet care to check on them and know how to do it right. And fewer yet know how to zone their irrigation, adjust the pressure swing accordingly, and finally, to size the pump in the first place. The guy that started this got boned with a 3HP pump, unless he's got 500 apple trees on spray irrigation.

    I have a pump, 1.5 hp franklin, with a shut off valve on the outlet and no tank. So it occurs to me that I can easily throttle it down and read the amp drop - I'll report back. The pump head is a Myers Rustler or something like that with a cast outlet.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 02-26-2012 at 01:49 PM.

  6. #21
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    If the pump and tank were properly sized in the first place a CSV will have little if any effect on either the longevity or the cost of operation.
    I'm sure everyone has a crystal ball and knows how to size a pump for every home and for every season. Then there is still the variable versus constant pressure which you have not addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    What sort of micronizer wont take a high pressure?
    My micronizer relies on a certain volume to be forced through a tiny venturi in order to create a vacuum to suck in air. The greater the pressure, the less the differential across the venturi and so the less vacuum. As much as I would like to have 70 PSI in the house, at that pressure the micronizer doesn't suck air. The brand happens to be Waterite.

    OK, so you say you don't try to discredit, so then you seem overly concerned about how people spend a couple hundred bucks. IMHO it is money well spent and better than spending it on bigger tanks which only prolong the variable pressure. Some folk claim they can't even notice the 20 PSI spread on a standard pressure switch, but I certainly can.

  7. #22
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    OK so I will. Let's say you have 20 gallons of water stored at 60psi and you open a faucet. Your pressure switch is set to come on at 40 psi (20psi delta p) So you get a 20 lb drop in pressure but you will never notice it unless you happen to still live in the stone ages and don't have pressure balanced tub and shower valves or whoever installed the piping in your house greatly screwed the pooch when they figured pipe size calculations. If you continue to draw the water off until the low setting is reached, the pump comes on and depending on the volume of draw may continue to run until the draw is satisfied or, if the draw is low the pump will once again run the tank up to 60 lbs which does of course, constitute a "cycle" but, a CSV will do the exact same thing on a small draw and in fact, will do it more often. A CSV is a marvelous thing but it is not going to completely eliminate pump cycling. Anyway though, I'm tired of this subject. It's merits and flaws have been documented here, there and everywhere. It is IMO a viable and useful option when used under the right conditions like most any product is.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  8. #23
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    “If the pump and tank were properly sized in the first place a CSV will have little if any effect on either the longevity or the cost of operation.” TS

    “An "average" is quickly brought down to 7 from 20 or 30 years when we count that most people dont even know where their pressure tank is at. And fewer yet care to check on them and know how to do it right. And fewer yet know how to zone their irrigation, adjust the pressure swing accordingly, and finally, to size the pump in the first place.” BV

    Sizing a pump and tank “properly” means knowing everything the home owner will do with the water. Tomorrow the owner of the home might change, decide to install a drip system, use garden hose sprinklers instead, add a shower with multiple heads, an instant water heater, or many other things the water system wasn’t “designed” for.

    You can either size as best you can and hope for the best, or you can use a CSV that will take care of anything the customer wants to do. But I am tired of discussing this as well. If you don’t want to do the best job possible for your customers, then don’t use a CSV. A CSV is not nearly as important for a 3/4HP, 7 GPM as it is for a 1.5HP, 20 GPM, but the CSV benefits every size pump system.

    I usually get the call after the installer has “properly sized” the pump and tank, but the system is still cycling on and off. When the customer tells me the installer never mentioned a CSV, I have to tell them that it is impossible to “properly size” for every situation, which is apparent to them by now. When they find out a CSV would have solved their problem and saved them considerable space and money by using a smaller tank, they are generally not very happy with the installer.

    A pressure reducing valve after the pressure tank doesn’t come close to working like a CSV. Your pump is still cycling itself to death and the wide pressure switch bandwidth is stretching the heck out of your tank bladder numerous times. Using a PRV does prove that you like constant pressure though. A CSV would give you that constant pressure without cycling your pump and tank to death in the process.

    LL I think your Micronizer can handle the high pressure, just that at 70 PSI your pump isn’t producing enough volume.

  9. #24
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    There is a micronizer with a very useful adjustment of venturi size, cant recall the name - actually designed for keeping air in plain tanks .... takes any pressure.

    I know you dont like my 'system' but plain tanks with no bladder to stretch, no issue. Only get a stretched bladder after too much wine. And I nearly always pump to a 3000g tank and have about 1000 drawdown before the well kicks in - so that pump will go full life, and actually its on year 16 now, with no flow reduction. Pumping botttled water quality, however.

    Then I typically use a several stage booster pump to feed the pressure system, which is quick to repair and I get about 4 or 5 years between start switches and cap's. A well placed three way valve lets me jump between systems for maintenance or gravity flow when the power dies, which it will do more often now that a Chinese or Iranian hacker can shut off our stupid meters. The dark ages are just a computer click away these days.

  10. #25
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Except for maybe a little water hammer, I see nothing wrong with your system. But like you said earlier, most people don’t even know where or what a pressure tank is. So when installing for the general public, you need a system that requires absolutely no maintenance and can handle any possible way water might be used. That makes “properly” sizing a pump and tank virtually impossible. You can’t “properly” size a pump and tank for a tractor sprinkler, multi-zoned heat pumps, ornamental water devices, multiple head showers, garden hose irrigation, an especially not for a combination of all the above.

    For someone like you who has good mechanical abilities, checking your air charge or maintaining a certain flow rate is not a problem. But I can assure you that leaving one single detail to be taken care of by the average homeowner will result in a total system failure. They won’t check the air charge, they won’t run the correct amount of water, they won’t even fix the flapper on a leaky toilet. A pump system needs to last a long time, survive without maintenance and deliver any amount of water being used without anyone giving it a second thought. I am not saying the wife can’t understand a water system, but it still needs to be something she never has to worry about. And that is what a CSV does. It allows you to use any amount of water, anyway you want, without any maintenance. Not to mention that because it can be used with a very small tank, the CSV lowers the overall cost. It may not be absolutely necessary to use a CSV on every pump installed, but it is better to be safe than sorry.

  11. #26
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Well, must admit that the CSV must be the 'watersystem for dummies' device, residentially speaking.

    I have so many pipes running around this property, that I posted a huge laminated board in the main pump house showing the next pump guy the layout and troubleshooting schematic. Maybe if he's good, he can get it back on line. But some dope plumber called in by the wife would take 8 hours to just find the well, buried under gravel in a side road.

    As to variable speed pumps, some excavators have for many years used pressure/flow sensors to increase hydraulic pressure when called for by the bucket. I have one with an early version, and never a blip in 10 years. Although the computer is US made and encased in epoxy and costs about 4 grand to replace. So one COULD build a nice variable speed pump, perhaps a stepper type motor, or permanent magnet dc rig, and keep speed and amps down low. But it would'nt compete well with what homeowner joe can afford, especially nowadays.

  12. #27
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    Well, must admit that the CSV must be the 'watersystem for dummies' device, residentially speaking.

    I have so many pipes running around this property, that I posted a huge laminated board in the main pump house showing the next pump guy the layout and troubleshooting schematic. Maybe if he's good, he can get it back on line. But some dope plumber called in by the wife would take 8 hours to just find the well, buried under gravel in a side road.

    Now thats funny! I have a notebook full of plumbing diagrams, valve and switch settings, pump model numbers, etc, etc. My wife said she is not worried because the place will be sold before they get all the dirt shoveled on me.

    I wouldn’t say the CSV is for “dummies”, but rather for “smart” people. People who are smart enough to know they will never understand a water system, just want everything taken care of. And that is what a CSV does.

    It doesn’t surprise me that very few homeowners know anything about a pump. What surprises me is how few so-called “pump professionals” really understand what they are doing. Most of them will act like they know what they are talking about, but that doesn’t make it so. I even have to explain things to many engineers for pump manufacturers.

    There are still a few good pump installers and engineers, but I bet I can count them all on my fingers. J Of course the pump manufacturers don’t want anyone to know how pumps really work. They just want you to “do what they say and don’t ask questions”.

  13. #28
    DIY Junior Member vpr80's Avatar
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    I am a bit afraid to ask, but what is the difference between the CSV valve and a Pressure Reducing Valve (PRV?)?

    Look like the same type of device to me by regulating the outflow pressure.

    Thank you.

    PS - I am really curious to have the conversation with my well pump installer as to (1) why a 3HP pump and (2) why no CSV type valve?

  14. #29
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    If the guy gave you a 3 HP pump, and you DONT have a fire sprinkler system, or live in the midst of a wildfire area and have several roof sprinklers, and you dont have a farm or large orchard, you are pretty much a victim, and will not get a good answer.

    If you were trying to supress fire, you would spend a fortune on a gen-set to start that pump! 1.5 HP saved my house and saves me every time it turns on. And I irrigate several large areas and 700 grape vines.

    The CSV is a PRV with a different internal design that appears to be self cleaning.

  15. #30
    DIY Junior Member vpr80's Avatar
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    Can't say that I am really surprised. I found out a lot of things after-the-fact that the various installers did incorrectly and share valveman's assessment that most are morons and do not know what they are doing.

    Not much I can do at this point, but I am thinking to install a Lakos ILB-0100 to help with the sediment coming up then the CSV1A. Should help right?

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