Torquing hose clamps for poly connections
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Tom Sawyer
In the Trades
When the joint stops leaking or the clamp breaks, which ever comes first. Clamps vary in quality and whether or not your insert fitting is plastic or metal make a difference too. It's a by feel thing.
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If I use brass fittings and high quality clamps (two per joint, opposed), would torquing to 60in lb with a Tee-handle wrench possibly be too much even if the clamps don't break? Or should each connection be tightened only just enough to stop leaking? Thanks.
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Cacher_Chick
Test, Don't Guess!
You have never said what you are working on, but should be aware that PE pipe is not approved for potable water use indoors. Most inspectors will approve the length coming in from the outside service to the first connection point within the residence.
I have never seen a torque spec for a small diameter hose clamp, and always tighten them by feel until they are "tight enough".
Although WI has no requirement for residential water service, you should be using clamps that are listed for such.
There are a lot of junk clamps out there that rot away in just a few years.
Ideal® 63 series clamps are listed for water service.
I have never seen a torque spec for a small diameter hose clamp, and always tighten them by feel until they are "tight enough".
Although WI has no requirement for residential water service, you should be using clamps that are listed for such.
There are a lot of junk clamps out there that rot away in just a few years.
Ideal® 63 series clamps are listed for water service.
Hackney plumbing
Homeowner
Cacherchick is giving you good advice. The only thing I could maybe add is to call the manufacturer of the pipe and talk to their technical service department. To be honest,I've never used the stuff other to make a repair and like mentioned above I just tightened it until I thought it was tight enough.......it was outside for sure or I wouldn't have touched the stuff. IMO its bottom of the barrel way to connect pipe. Avoid its use at almost all costs,IMO.
Thanks for the info, I'm using the poly for yard hydrants in the back yard, and the clamps are Ideal marine grade and have a UPC stamp on them. I'm going to air test the system so I'll stay on the conservative side when tightening and adjust as needed.
Ballvalve
General Engineering Contractor
Poly pipe suppliers have specific plans to make a good joint - heat ONLY with hot water, not a torch, use a good clamp - ie US made and rated, as one you mentioned, and for real work, retorque at least once before covering. I have not seen a torque spec, but you can break most using a socket wrench. A nut driver is torque limiting, but I do keep a very short socket wrench set up for hose clamps.
Actually here is a link for marine clamps showing 30 to 35 for torque.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/IDEAL-Hose-Clamp-1XHC2?Pid=search
Here is one without a torque rating, but quite a bargain for the quality
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/IDEAL-Worm-Gear-Hose-Clamp-5CYZ9?Pid=search
Actually here is a link for marine clamps showing 30 to 35 for torque.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/IDEAL-Hose-Clamp-1XHC2?Pid=search
Here is one without a torque rating, but quite a bargain for the quality
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/IDEAL-Worm-Gear-Hose-Clamp-5CYZ9?Pid=search
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LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
All I ever use is a nut driver with a rubber handle and have never stripped out a quality Ideal® clamp. I can "feel" when it is tight and never had an urge to measure it with a torque wrench and never had a leak. I try not to overheat the poly otherwise it follows the shape of the barb and makes it hard to remove later. I warm it just enough so that it still takes some effort to slip over the barb.
Tom Sawyer
In the Trades
How many guys heat only with hot water LOL Torch it baby, just be gentle.
The manufacturer of the poly I'm using does not give suggestions for heating, so I planned on using the torch method.
http://www.polytechpipe.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Excel-Brochure.pdf
http://www.polytechpipe.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Excel-Brochure.pdf
Ballvalve
General Engineering Contractor
If you have a torch, you must have a tin can too or a beer can. Use it to heat your water. The torch method is very liable to degrade the structure of the poly, which is especially important when a pump is hanging on it, and applying twist many times a day.
Some artists get away with the torch method, but I actually called Cresco, I think, once and spoke to their engineering guys, who pointed me to their only approved method of hot water on their website.
Actually, here is the REAL way to connect poly pipe and then we need not discuss heat and clamps. http://www.campbellmfg.com/catalog/f04.htm
Most Mfgrs. don't want to even discuss the issue in their 'specs' because they are geared to big users that heat weld all joints, and use many types of specialized clamp fittings and saddle taps that make the homeowner joe insert barb a non-issue for them. When you are under 125PSI pipe, no heat is needed anyway.
Some artists get away with the torch method, but I actually called Cresco, I think, once and spoke to their engineering guys, who pointed me to their only approved method of hot water on their website.
Actually, here is the REAL way to connect poly pipe and then we need not discuss heat and clamps. http://www.campbellmfg.com/catalog/f04.htm
Most Mfgrs. don't want to even discuss the issue in their 'specs' because they are geared to big users that heat weld all joints, and use many types of specialized clamp fittings and saddle taps that make the homeowner joe insert barb a non-issue for them. When you are under 125PSI pipe, no heat is needed anyway.
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Plumber111
In the Trades
"If you have a torch, you must have a tin can too or a beer can. Use it to heat your water. The torch method is very liable to degrade the structure of the poly, which is especially important when a pump is hanging on it, and applying twist many times a day."
There are thousands of pumps & fittings installed here using the torch method. Maybe even in the millions. I have seen no evidence of this. Have you seen it where you are located? Has there been a long-term test done showing this?
Thanks.
There are thousands of pumps & fittings installed here using the torch method. Maybe even in the millions. I have seen no evidence of this. Have you seen it where you are located? Has there been a long-term test done showing this?
Thanks.
Ballvalve
General Engineering Contractor
Endot, one of the largest, specifically states that only hot water is approved to warm their pipe for insert fittings. Because they know as I do that if you send the newbie into the hole with a hairdryer, heat gun on low, or teaketle, he can't have a brain fart and get the pipe up to the torches 2000 degree capacity. It only requires about 200 degrees to greatly soften PE pipe, and it does not like to conduct heat. Notice that the pressure rating is usually around 75'F
So if you are the artist with a torch [probably a burning piece of rolled up newspaper would be safer] go for it. Just don't send the kid on the job with your soldering torch.
I would post their links to this bold notice, but it opens in word pad with no content.
The pity is that the fantastic collet type connectors, with far less flow restriction are so hard to find, and little known of.
Let's ask Hackney to run the tests, he enjoys it.
So if you are the artist with a torch [probably a burning piece of rolled up newspaper would be safer] go for it. Just don't send the kid on the job with your soldering torch.
I would post their links to this bold notice, but it opens in word pad with no content.
The pity is that the fantastic collet type connectors, with far less flow restriction are so hard to find, and little known of.
Let's ask Hackney to run the tests, he enjoys it.
I have completed the project, and decided to use the tea kettle method to get the poly onto the barbs. Of the 8 barb connections, none leaked, and only one gave me trouble during insertion. And that was probably because I didn't leave the poly in the hot water long enough. It was somewhat of a pain running back and forth to the house to reheat the kettle, but it was worth it knowing there isn't a chance I compromised the connections if I had a used a torch.
Gary Swart
In the Trades
It would be my opinion FWIW, that the manufacturer is covering their backside when they advise against a torch. As we all know, it would be fairly easy to get a bit too close for too long with a torch and even a heat gun can get things too hot. You're not going to do any damage with the hot water, but an experienced pro who is trying to get the job done ASAP isn't likely to take the time for the hot water. A DIY might find locating a torch to be as time consuming as boiling a pan of water. If you don't have experience, use a torch with much care.
Tom Sawyer
In the Trades
I'm trying to imagine carrying a pail full of hot water twenty feet down a ladder in the middle of 4 foot well tiles. Nobody and I mean nobody that works extensively with poly uses hot water. For cripe's sakes man, it would take the better part of a month to make up a sprinkler system that way.
Hackney plumbing
Homeowner
I would set my helper on fire before I carried hot water around the job. But really around my area I dont find that much of it.
I do like heat guns tho.......they are great for making friday @ 5 pm repairs on PVC and making things work that shouldn't.
I do like heat guns tho.......they are great for making friday @ 5 pm repairs on PVC and making things work that shouldn't.
Tom Sawyer
In the Trades
I would venture to guess that 99% of all deep well pumps in this area are set on 160lb PE. And another 99% have PE run from the well head to the well tank in the basement
Ballvalve
General Engineering Contractor
Good job. We should all notice that the pipe has its pressure rating at 75' F , so that means its plenty soft at 200'F. A bic lighter would be much safer than a torch anyway.
Flic your bic grille lighter for 2 bucks. It carries easy down your holes. Sprinkler systems dont use heat, as only a nut would use 160 or 200 psi pipe in a 30 psi system.
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Tom Sawyer
In the Trades
I carry my Lennox hand held Turbo Torch down the hole. We use 160 lb poly E for all sprinkler systems up here. Not many other things will stand up to the winter freeze. And yes, we do drain and blow it out in the fall but there are always a few low spots that water pools in. 160 PE seems to handle that just fine as long as the pipe is not full and pressurized.
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