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Thread: Csv?

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member soggy's Avatar
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    Default Csv?

    I have been searching for info on csv's and pressure tanks. This seems to be the place for answers! I am thinking that my pressure tank(well-xtrol203) is shot. Looking for info on replacing it I came across info on csv's, which sound good. I am wondering if a user is say washing dishes(old school style) and runs a couple of gallons multiple times, would that not be the same cycling of the pump, if you were draining the small tank repeatedly?

  2. #2
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    You can use a CSV with any size tank including the size you have if you are concerned about cycling.

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    DIY Junior Member soggy's Avatar
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    I am try to determine if their is any advantage to using the csv considering the various senarios that come into play during everyday usage. Would using a csv with a larger tank only be effective if you were running water for an extended time period?

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    Test, Don't Guess! cacher_chick's Avatar
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    If you have a really small tank, the pump will have to cycle once pretty much every time you run water. The benefit comes when the pump is oversized and you are running the water as you would for showers or irrigation, as the pump would still only cycle once instead of multiple times.

    A large tank and a csv would provide the most benefit, as then it covers both types of use.

  5. #5
    DIY Junior Member soggy's Avatar
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    Thanks to both of you for the input. Any ideas on where to find info on sizing the csv to the pump and tank?

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    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Porky Cutter,MGWC Porky's Avatar
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    A CSV with a small tank is all that is needed. And yes the pump will start almost every time you use a small amount of water but the savings to the pump is when you are using larger amounts of water such as a washing machine, a dish washer, a shower or a sprinkler system. With any of them the pump will come on when the pressure switch tells it to then the pump will run (and not cycle) while water is demanded (Like taking a shower) plus it will give you a constant pressure (like city water pressure). Once there is no more demand the pump will continue running to refill the tank to the cutoff setting then turn off with no water hammer. With a CSV you don't need a large tank. A WX-102 works great. Consider purchasing a Pside-Kick. http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/products.html Try it you'll love it.
    Porky Cutter, MGWC
    (Master Ground Water Consultant)

  8. #8
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    The whole idea of the small tank with a CSV, is that the CSV eliminates multiple pump cycles during longer term uses of water like showers and sprinklers. So even though it may cycle when a single toilet is flushed by itself, the total number of cycles is still less than without having a CSV and using a larger tank.

    The pump doesn’t actually get an extra cycle every time a toilet is flushed. If you flush just before starting the shower, while the shower is on, or very soon after the shower is turned off, there is no extra cycle because of the toilet. If a toilet is flushed while the washing machine is filling, someone is brushing their teeth, or any other water is being used, there is no extra cycle because of the toilet. I mean, how many times a day do you flush a toilet while water is not being used somewhere else in the house before, during, or right after the flush? This doesn’t happen very many times per day, and would also be a giveaway that you don’t at least wash your hands after you flush. L

    Life of the pump and system is all about the total number of cycles. Even if the pump cycles 30 times a day for toilets flushed all by themselves, that doesn’t add up to much. And the CSV will make up for those cycles by eliminating 3 to 6 cycles for every shower and dozens if not hundreds of cycles when running a sprinkler or other long term water uses.

    However, the CSV will work with any size tank. 30 flushes per day would use 48 gallons of water. So if you have an 80 gallon size pressure tank (25 gallons of usable water), during the worst case it might save 28 cycles per day. And that is only if the toilets are flushed 30 times a day without any other water being used at the same time. The tradeoff is extra cost of the big tank, extra square footage or space to put the big tank, and BTU’s for heating the big tank. You also would have to live with decreasing pressure for the first half of a shower, before the pump starts and you finally enjoy the strong constant pressure delivered by the CSV.

    With a small tank and CSV the pump is on quickly and you can enjoy constant pressure during an entire shower. Large tank or small the CSV system is far superior to the variable speed type pump systems (or VFD’s) many pump installers try to push on their customers to increase profits.

  9. #9
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valveman View Post
    I mean, how many times a day do you flush a toilet while water is not being used somewhere else in the house before, during, or right after the flush? This doesn’t happen very many times per day, and would also be a giveaway that you don’t at least wash your hands after you flush. L

  10. #10
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    As valveman mentioned in another thread, the spread between start and stop could be adjusted on a larger tank to get the balance of drawdown versus constant pressure. Too large of a tank delays how long before the pressure becomes constant. The EPS15/99 allows for easy and precise adjustment and is not limited to the inherent 20 PSI spread that most mechanical switches have. A reduced spread should also increase the life of the bladder.

  11. #11
    DIY Junior Member soggy's Avatar
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    I understand what you all are saying, but mine is not a typical senario. We have rainwater/snow melt collection in the winter/spring and a infiltration gallery "well" in the other seasons. It all gets stored in a 1600 gallon cistern. In the summer when we water the garden and greenhouse, the csv w/small tank would be ideal. When we are collecting water, we are VERY conservative with our usage. We collect the 3 quarts it takes to get hot and reuse it. The water never runs indiscrimately, and we rarely use more than 2-3 gallons at a time. My concern is that the pump will run with almost every usage during this time of the year. I will be installing a csv, it will be ideal for summer usage. The rest of the year I would like to know that my system is the most effcient and causes the least wear on the components. So I am trying to determine the ideal size of pressure tank for our restricted water usage.

  12. #12
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Sounds like you might be off grid, in which case your best CSV is a tank up on the old classic stilts, or up the hillside like mine.

    I see the csv as great for irrigation, but declining in returns beyond that. If off grid, you could do a three way valve and shuttle between your diaphragm tank for winter and the csv for summer, or as you see fit. A Goulds tank that has about 26 gallons draw down is about $360 here, and with your careful use and [I may assume] electric consumption concerns, you sound outside the curve on the csv. I dont follow the one size fits all theory.

    For me, I pump to a static tank, gravity feed a booster pump into a plain air tank. I run the pressure about 50 to 85, which gives me a outdoor pressure washer part time, and then regulate down at the house entry.

    Also since around here, one leg usually grows longer than the other because of the steep slopes, I have 2 tanks on other properties that give me a "free" 50+ psi all the time.

    I "boldly" set a 1/2 HP submersible to serve two rental houses on one property. And used a 80 gallon plain tank. never a blip for 12 years now, and I guess that I created my own csv by hitting the right size pump that keeps the renters in water - just - by keeping the pump on at the peak use times. I admit the csv takes out the math or the luck, but I know you pay more for power in non irrigation use.

    I would really like to set up a 3 way valve to shuttle between csv and non csv use off and on for a few monthly cycles. With our smart-spy meters, it would be a no brainer to settle any debate about the power use. Then another device to measure starts would settle it all. Then we could just debate if the added run time [if so] actually extends bearing and pump head life enough for payback.

    Good job for consumer reports who are busy telling us the Americans to buy only foreign cars, and testing TV's that change their innards every month at the factory. And telling us to buy toilets that don't work at all.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 02-17-2012 at 12:17 PM.

  13. #13
    DIY Junior Member soggy's Avatar
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    Not quite off-grid, just water challenged. We sit on top of the Idaho batholith, a big chunk of granite. The well here run 300'-400', and produce 1-1.5 gpm if you are lucky and find water(lots of dry holes). Then after you pay 30$+ per ft. to drill down (wet or dry), you have to pay for horizontal drilling to get the water to the house(50$ per ft.). I wish we could afford to drill, but we cannot. Too cold here for outside storage or plumbing. I love the idea of a small tank, I could use the extra space. My concern is optimizing the system to minimize future expenses

  14. #14
    DIY Junior Member soggy's Avatar
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    If you are looking at this thread, it ia already too late. Do not reply, go to the "pressure tank" thread. Any info you might have been looking for is being discused.

    Soggy

  15. #15
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    What pressure tank thread? To date, this is the only thread you started.

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