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Thread: Water consumption increase?

  1. #16
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Gary Slusser;334148]IMO, using a chart used for boilers etc. to size or set up a residential softener is not the right way to go because normally the equipment is not the same nor is the water quality from a residential softener acceptable for most commercial boilers.

    If we were to use the chart, I see a 6-8% increase in efficiency from 5 to 7 or 8 days and IMO again, 6-8% over the 10-20 years of the normal life of a residential softener seems like a fair amount of salt saved. Or, we could say a substantial increase in salt efficiency.

    And I do not believe the "efficiencies" are talking about water efficiency, just salt used. Water efficiency would be greatly increased with 7-8 day regeneration.

    Residential softeners should be sized and programmed for a regeneration on average every 7-9 days, using 60 gals/person/day.[/QUOT


    We use the exact same equipment for commercial boilers as we do residential. For small steam boilers requiring <1-3ppm hardness as CACO3, any Fleck or Clack can be used to meet this water quality requirment. Just use your resin manufacturers hardness bleed charts. A hardness bleed of <2 ppm can be achieved by regenerating a resin bed with 12-15 pounds of salt per cu. ft. This is not an acceptable efficiency for most operators, so a pre-softener, usually a twin alternating design is installed ahead of the polishing softener. The pre softener is typically set to regenerate with 4 pounds of salt per cu. ft. BTW, I am a licensed steam boiler operator. Name:  leakage1.jpg
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    My charts are a standard efficiency chart. We use it to show the diminishing return past a certain point. In steam boiler and cooling towers we use this for water cycles. If I increase my water cycles past 6, the return on efficiency drops neglibly. Same goes for salt efficiency past 85-90% efficiency. Why not go to 14 days between regenerations from 7 days, that is an increase of 7%, over 20 years...

    The point of the chart is not to create an efficiency debate, I will win that one every time. I was a system efficiency consultant for SCE and SCG, I know how to maximize systems efficiencies in softeners, electrical systems, Cooloing towers, steam boilers, lighting systems, motors, etc.

    I will try to find the article I wrote 10 years ago on this exact subject and post it, otherwise look up Pentairs water/salt efficiency article. A cubic foot of resin uses a nearly set amount of water to regenerate. I agree that systems should be sized to regenerate every 7-9 days, but as long as they meet the 5 day minimum, the efficiency differences are no where nearly as dramatic as some people would beleive.

    Tom has it right, a system set to regenerate with a proper amount of salt and I will add, systems should have their backwash and fast rinse times minimized to meet the supply water quality, then as an industry we will have met a much better standard than we have in the past. Considering the largest system people buy from Home depot will usually regenerate every day or two...

    Now for micro managing salt usage, I used to sell millions of pounds of salt to commercial and industrial facilities, and we pushed for innefficent systems to increase our salt sales. Not a good way to do it, and we are now heavily regulated because of our short term thinking of the past. Also in the past, the technology was just coming in to allow for easy efficiency gains. I rarely sell single tank systems anymore for commercail applications, the majority of our larger system sales are almost always system 14 triplex designs. We do not need to micro manage salt, just properly sell systems that are sized properly, and set the salt to less than 8 pounds of salt per cubic foot and the customers will nbe happy, and we will keep ourselves from being more regulated. See the capacity vs salt chart aboe to see why 8 pounds should be the max. The efficiency curve drops quickly past 8 pounds. California allows for no more than 6 pounds for residential use. I do not like 6 pounds personally beacuase of the hardness leakage gets into the area where some people do not "feel" the full benefits of soft water.

    Lets not start a debate, just look at the charts, nod , and dont start stirring.

  2. #17
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    My Autotrol 440 timers on both the softener and iron filter came with a 6 day wheel.
    The 440 is like 40 years old and it's a day timer. Autotrol has a number of valves that allow more time between regenerations. A metered valve on a softener saves substantial salt and water. You don't want a metered valve on most filters.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #18
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    The actual difference between 5 days and 9 days is so small as to be of no consequence at all. I for the life of me don't understand the need to micro manage salt use. Yes, we should avoid excessive salt and water use but 99.9% of the time, if the unit is properly sized and set according to the manufacturers directions, the unit will perform just fine and requires no extra twiddling at all.

    Those of us that actually sell, install and service these things on a daily basis are not so concerned with micro managing customers salt or water use. We want equipment that gets the job done efficiently and does not generate call backs that cost us money. It's easy to sell stuff over the internet because you don't have to install it or take responsibility for its operation.
    Doing the simple math to come up with the lbs of salt required to regenerate the K of capacity needed to provide the gallons of water used to cause a regeneration on average every 7-9 days is not difficult if you know how. It isn't "micro managing" either.

    You comment concerning selling water treatment equipment over the internet says to me (someone that has done a lot of it) that you've never done it.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #19
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    No, I have not nor will I ever sell equipment over the internet. If I can't put my hands on it to install and service it I sure as hell don't want the headaches of dealing long distance with problems, or having my product made unavailable to me anymore by the manufacturer. Clack took its products out of the internet environment because of the slew of warranty issues that were not being handled by the sellers and because their products were being sold by guys that have no clue. No, doing the math is pretty easy but that's not what I was talking about. What I'm talking about is those folks that get wrapped up in micro-managing the valve settings and never seem to be happy with their results or are constantly fiddling with an appliance that should be set and forget except for adding salt.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  5. #20
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    IMO, using a chart used for boilers etc. to size or set up a residential softener is not the right way to go because normally the equipment is not the same nor is the water quality from a residential softener acceptable for most commercial boilers.

    If we were to use the chart, I see a 6-8% increase in efficiency from 5 to 7 or 8 days and IMO again, 6-8% over the 10-20 years of the normal life of a residential softener seems like a fair amount of salt saved. Or, we could say a substantial increase in salt efficiency.

    And I do not believe the "efficiencies" are talking about water efficiency, just salt used. Water efficiency would be greatly increased with 7-8 day regeneration.

    Residential softeners should be sized and programmed for a regeneration on average every 7-9 days, using 60 gals/person/day.
    We use the exact same equipment for commercial boilers as we do residential. For small steam boilers requiring <1-3ppm hardness as CACO3, any Fleck or Clack can be used to meet this water quality requirment.
    And most boilers are not small stream but, we aren't talking to someone with a boiler. The OP and other residential softener owners are not testing their softened water for ppm of hardness. Residential customers use gpg, and as long as the softener produces 0 gpg of hardness, they are very satisfied.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Just use your resin manufacturers hardness bleed charts. A hardness bleed of <2 ppm can be achieved by regenerating a resin bed with 12-15 pounds of salt per cu. ft.
    I agree with your previous comments that that volume of salt use is very wasteful in residential applications.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    A cubic foot of resin uses a nearly set amount of water to regenerate. I agree that systems should be sized to regenerate every 7-9 days,
    A set amount of water only if you as the dealer don't change it or tell your DIYer customer to set it properly.

    The 7-9 days is what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    a system set to regenerate with a proper amount of salt and I will add, systems should have their backwash and fast rinse times minimized to meet the supply water quality, then as an industry we will have met a much better standard than we have in the past.
    I've been doing that for years and gave all my internet customers those figures and told them how to program their control valve. And since 1987 I programmed all the control valves on equipment that I sold to local DIYers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Now for micro managing salt usage, I used to sell millions of pounds of salt to commercial and industrial facilities, and we pushed for innefficent systems to increase our salt sales. Not a good way to do it, and we are now heavily regulated because of our short term thinking of the past. Also in the past, the technology was just coming in to allow for easy efficiency gains.
    Shame on you. I've never done things like that. I did what benefited the customer and if they didn't agree, I walked away from the sale. I got a very good reputation doing that and it enabled me to sell much more equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    We do not need to micro manage salt, just properly sell systems that are sized properly, and set the salt to less than 8 pounds of salt per cubic foot and the customers will nbe happy, and we will keep ourselves from being more regulated. See the capacity vs salt chart aboe to see why 8 pounds should be the max. The efficiency curve drops quickly past 8 pounds. California allows for no more than 6 pounds for residential use. I do not like 6 pounds personally beacuase of the hardness leakage gets into the area where some people do not "feel" the full benefits of soft water.
    I've been properly sizing softeners for many years based on fairly high salt and water efficiency and rarely had any complaints from customers suffering hardness in their softened water. And usually found that they had allowed the softener to run out of salt a week or so earlier and didn't follow my instructions of what to do when they did that.

    Sad to say but many dealers today are still not sizing or programming properly.

    Lets keep discussions on doing the best for the OP here, nod , and don't continue stirring with "Tom" et al.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #21
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    "Stirring with Tom et al"

    Man you have a short memory. So short in fact that you don't even remember your post #18. Who's doing the stirring here?

    Oh....that would be you my friend. See you lob little bombs out there and when someone comes back at you you change direction. Are you a Democrat by any chance LOL
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  7. #22
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    No, I have not nor will I ever sell equipment over the internet. If I can't put my hands on it to install and service it I sure as hell don't want the headaches of dealing long distance with problems, or having my product made unavailable to me anymore by the manufacturer.
    Yeah ya gotta be above average to sell online or to local DIYers and I don't think you have what it takes. Fear keeps many from realizing their best potential. You do know I could park ourselves up there in southern NH and continue selling that product if I chose to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Clack took its products out of the internet environment because of the slew of warranty issues that were not being handled by the sellers and because their products were being sold by guys that have no clue.
    That's not the what I was told by the big guys at Clack, that's as far back as July 2005, or my suppliers and other suppliers and a number of internet dealers. Actually there were very few warranty issues with any of Clack's valves.

    BTW, warranty issues of any component of a softener are dealt with by the manufacturers' distributors, the dealer's suppliers.

    No, doing the math is pretty easy but that's not what I was talking about. What I'm talking about is those folks that get wrapped up in micro-managing the valve settings and never seem to be happy with their results or are constantly fiddling with an appliance that should be set and forget except for adding salt.[/QUOTE]
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  8. #23
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Yeah ya gotta be above average to sell online or to local DIYers and I don't think you have what it takes. Fear keeps many from realizing their best potential. You do know I could park ourselves up there in southern NH and continue selling that product if I chose to.

    And I'm the guy stirring the pot and making personal attacks? LOL

    And you should. You would be more than welcome to join the ranks but.....we'd make you sit for the license LOL


    That's not the what I was told by the big guys at Clack, that's as far back as July 2005, or my suppliers and other suppliers and a number of internet dealers. Actually there were very few warranty issues with any of Clack's valves.

    It's exactly what the rest of us were told. Maybe they was keeping you out of the loop due to your years of meritorious sales and service.

    BTW, warranty issues of any component of a softener are dealt with by the manufacturers' distributors, the dealer's suppliers.

    No, doing the math is pretty easy but that's not what I was talking about. What I'm talking about is those folks that get wrapped up in micro-managing the valve settings and never seem to be happy with their results or are constantly fiddling with an appliance that should be set and forget except for adding salt.
    [/QUOTE]

    But hey, you can always delete my post if you want.......or maybe not
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Gary, you don't feel this was a personal attack? It is every bit of one because you address him personally. what a hipocrite you are.

  10. #25
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    Gary, you don't feel this was a personal attack? It is every bit of one because you address him personally. what a hipocrite you are.
    Agreed, why someone keeps chasing people trying to dicredit them is with bad information is tiring. Every post is rebutted, degraded, or trumped... but with misinformation and fair, not great advice at best. The problem is with the constant attempt to make sure everybody else who gives advice is wrong. I have disagreed with every technician on this sight, but for the most part, my disagreements are based on regional issues, opinions, and feild knowledge. In the same breath, I also take the time to re-read the advice and find that for the most part, the info is absolutely correct, just not 100% in agreement with me. I therefore reply to most of the technicians with a compliment on their excellent advice, and will on occassion try to bring up an idea that may add to the conversation. Other than the pot stirrer, the technical advice given on this site, and the added responses have been of a great benefit to the people asking the questions.

    Reminds me of my ex-wife, she was always right, everybody else is always wrong.

    It is nice to be rid of her.

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