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Thread: Review my softener choice

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member kistner's Avatar
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    Default Review my softener choice

    I have been reading up for a while and believe I have picked well for my household but would appreciate any input before I pull the trigger.

    Municipal authority has my usage at 11000 gallons per month, may go up as my kids are 9 and 10 (family of 4)
    Hardness is around 14

    The system I am leaning to is Fleck 7000SXT Meter Water Softener - 32,000 Grain Capacity
    Any thoughts?

    Also, I see most are hesitant to recommend an online vendor, but are there any to avoid?

    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    While sizing softeners tends to start a strange debate here everytime. I will post a cheat sheet that takes the guesswork out of it for 90% of the applications. You application slightly exceeds the chart I am posting but it will be close enough.

    That being said, I would almost never recommend a 32,000 grain system for pure financial reasons. As an OEM builder of units, I charge less than a $20 difference between a 1 and a 1-1/2 cu. ft softener. You gain a 50% increase in size for less than a 5% increase in price. I sell over 75% of our units we build as 1.5 Cu. Ft. system. The majority are larger. We sell a lot of 9X48 tanks, but usually for other treatment methods and systems.

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    Now for your system,

    300 gallons per day X 14 grains water hardness X 6 days between regenerations = 25200

    Your 32,000 grain system is actually a 24000 grain system when regenerated with a proper amount of salt. You should never try to achieve 32,000 grains out of a cu. ft of resin, it would be the equivalent of saying a truck gets 90 miles per gallon, without stating that the test was done with the truck in idle going down a steep hill with an 80 MPH tailwind.

    Your system shoud be a 25,200 grain system, round up to the next size = is a 1.5 cu. ft. system.

    FYI, my own house is 210 gallons per day, x 13 grains water hardness with a 48,000 actual grain capacity system. It regenerates every 15 to 20 days.

    As for the 7000SXT, that is the premeire valve on the market. Ultra high flow rates, great electronic controls, simple service, outdoor rated, bullet proof. I would recommend either 10% crosslink resin or a gac pre tank to protect the resin. See my previous posts for a few ideas.
    Last edited by ditttohead; 02-02-2012 at 10:19 AM.

  3. #3
    DIY Junior Member kistner's Avatar
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    thanks for the info

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    Nice chart. I have never seen one in that configuration. Thanks.

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    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Kistner, you should click on the link in my signature and learn more about correctly sizing a softener.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    DIY Junior Member kistner's Avatar
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    thank you both for the information

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    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Too many people try to make it difficult. For municipal supplies without iron, this chart is very accurate, and very conservative. It is one of the "white sheets" I made a few years ago and is passed out during my training seminars. I tried to keep it as simple as possible. So did you decide on the size yet? I just got out of a meeting with Fleck today and there are some very exciting products coming up at the trade show. I may even be tempted to replace my 7000 valve next year. I have had the same 7000 for 12 years now.

  8. #8
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    The chart doesn't include anything about the peak demand flow rate of the house that the softener has to treat.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #9
    DIY Junior Member kistner's Avatar
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    it looks like your and Mr Slusser's suggestions lean to the 1.5 cubic foot so I will probably go with that. Thanks again for the help.

  10. #10
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    The chart doesn't include anything about the peak demand flow rate of the house that the softener has to treat.
    Gary, instead of a nice comment on the simplicity of the chart and how useful it could be especially for newer technicians and sales people who want to be sure to sell an efficient and properly sized system, you have to make a comment on the charts deficiency? The question was on capacity and not peak operating flow rates for an given application, that is why it is called a capacity sizing chart and not a flow rate chart. I have other white sheets and cheat sheets for that. If you would like, I can post those as well. Even so, using UPC recommendations for fixture count and potential peak flow rates... I find it much easier to use a maximum flow rate of no more than 8 FPS for a given pipe size since this is UPC code for residential and commercial applications that are not sepcifically engineered to higher velocities. As long as you maintain a velocity of no more than 8 FPS, you will meet the system requirments every time.
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    Now... lets do the math, if a 1.5 cubic foot 7000SXT has a peak operating flow rate of 16-17 GPM, and a 1" main line is installed according to UPC code, to not exceed 8 FPS, then the worst case scenario is that this system could be potentially undersized by approximately 1 GPM


    If you would like, I can email you these charts which takes away all the guess work, calculations, etc. Just like the capacity sizing chart does. With the advancements in system flow rates and designs, sizing is much easier. Now if the customer has a pipe size of 1-1/4", then the flow rate potential of up to 31 GPM should be considered and a fixture count would be more appropriate. For 3/4" and 1" plumbing, it has become a non issue so long as the 7000 or the Clack valves are installed on a minimum 1.5 Cu. Ft. System.

  11. #11
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Obviously, iron, manganese, and other variances were not included on this chart, it is intended for municipal supplies that are relatively clean.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 02-03-2012 at 10:06 PM.

  12. #12
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Gary, instead of a nice comment on the simplicity of the chart and how useful it could be especially for newer technicians and sales people who want to be sure to sell an efficient and properly sized system, you have to make a comment on the charts deficiency?
    You are in a DIYer forum, not a seminar with techs and sales people. The OP's question is what size softener and IMO sizing includes getting the constant SFR of the softener right. And I don't see my mentioning that your chart doesn't mention it as anything but a fact. I have seen many charts likes yours from a number of OEMs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    The question was on capacity and not peak operating flow rates for an given application, that is why it is called a capacity sizing chart and not a flow rate chart. I have other white sheets and cheat sheets for that. If you would like, I can post those as well. Even so, using UPC recommendations for fixture count and potential peak flow rates... I find it much easier to use a maximum flow rate of no more than 8 FPS for a given pipe size since this is UPC code for residential and commercial applications that are not sepcifically engineered to higher velocities. As long as you maintain a velocity of no more than 8 FPS, you will meet the system requirments every time.
    Actually the OP said 32k capacity meaning is it the right size softener.

    Rather than UPC etc. I find it much better to use the maximum gpm SFR off the spec sheet of the manufacturer's resin you are selling.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Now... lets do the math, if a 1.5 cubic foot 7000SXT has a peak operating flow rate of 16-17 GPM, and a 1" main line is installed according to UPC code, to not exceed 8 FPS, then the worst case scenario is that this system could be potentially undersized by approximately 1 GPM
    I don't like using IFs, I guess you could say I'm more detail oriented.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    If you would like, I can email you these charts which takes away all the guess work, calculations, etc. Just like the capacity sizing chart does. With the advancements in system flow rates and designs, sizing is much easier. Now if the customer has a pipe size of 1-1/4", then the flow rate potential of up to 31 GPM should be considered and a fixture count would be more appropriate. For 3/4" and 1" plumbing, it has become a non issue so long as the 7000 or the Clack valves are installed on a minimum 1.5 Cu. Ft. System.
    The problem I see with that is until I said something you weren't talking to me, your replies were to the OP, a DIY person wanting information on his choice of a 1.0 cuft softener. I have 25 years experience in dealing with DIYers with 15 years in DIY forums such as this one (over 10 years here including the original forum) and it is obvious to me that you may not have any experience where DIYers are concerned.

    And you say that you don't sell retail and you love marketing.... I've found that much of the water treatment equipment marketing today is the same BS it was when I got into the industry 25 years ago. You seem to be marketing yourself with no reason to. I'm beginning to question why you bother to post here.

    Plus I said constant SFR and you are going on about 16-17 gpm peak SFR. How long will a softener soften the water to 0 gpg if it is constantly treating water at its max peak SFR? BTW, for constant SFR I use a simple chart. And it isn't limited to municipal water systems.

    Question, how do you know the OP doesn't have a large jetted tub and/or a two person or a number of body sprays, in the master bath shower and has a higher peak demand than 16-17 gpm? I have a chart with various sizes and types of plumbing pipe/tubing at various water pressures and the gpm you get. Many flows at 50 psi are higher than your 8ft/second. That is velocity and as you say it is the max velocity allowed by plumbing codes. I would not use it because you don't know what pressure the system is running at and there is no mention of pressure on your chart or the text explaining the chart. Plus there is no easy way for a DIYer or other type customer to measure what velocity his water flows at.

    I say a 1.5 cuft softener has a 10 gpm constant SFR. BTW, most resin manufacturers suggest a residential softener be regenerated once every 7-9 days and I used 8 days, you say yours goes something like twice that or more between regenerations.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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