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Thread: Need help in choosing & sizing water treatment equipment.

  1. #31
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    I am limited on time today, but I will answer one of the questions.

    For the fixed rate, it really doesnt matter. If you get a smaller fixed rate you will actually adjust the rate by the dilution ratio of your chlorine. A chemical storage tank with 20 gallons capacity, I dont have my charts but you would simply run the math to find out how to get the ratio up to 1-2 PPM of chlorine. Once you figure out th proper ratio, you will simply mix your chemical storgae tank the same way eveytime.

    Example, 1 gallon chlorox + 5 gallons of water into the chemical tank... I will try to have my charts later tonight.

    Regenerating less often than every 8 days is fine as long as you are moving water through tthe system. Even enery 20 days is fine. As long as your pre-treatment is adequate. Resin does not compact and lose flow. The media is round, round medias can only compact so much, and it does its maximum compaction during the fast rinse cycle. Irregular medias, GAC, Activated Alumina, Titanium dioxide, turbidex, etc will compact continually and must be backwashed regularly to minimize flow reductions.

    Check out the Structural ROMate 40 tanks, USA made, excellent connection options, great warranty, a little more expensive.

    Technically, the 5600SXT is not properly rated for a 12" GAC tank. This is a technicality, some people do use it for that. We do not even offer it since it is outside of the design parameters of the valve.

    Please, anybody who disagrees with me on the 12" GAC tank, I will not reply back, just check out the major's, the majority of them have removed the 12" tank from their GAC listings in the past 10 years. Or simply go direct to the source and use Flecks specifications. http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com...et%2042749.pdf

    Use the 7000 valve for that application, it is a much better valve than the 5600SXT. Higher flow rates, Outdoor rated, no mechanical switching, heavier motor, simpler service, more plumbing installation options, etc... The 7000 was designed during this century, not 30 years ago. Again, please no arguments, we sell thousands of Fleck valves, and I have to deal with every warranty issue myself, the 7000, THE WS1, and the 2510 SXT are the most reliable valves.

    Class over for now.

  2. #32
    DIY Junior Member Platin465's Avatar
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    Dittto,

    Off subject, why are there three "t"s in your name?

    Now, thanks again for the info! This is the kind of stuff that I need to know. So which valves should I use outside? Is the 2510 SXT good? I did find it odd that the 5600 SXT cost less than the others.

  3. #33
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    the three t's are because dittohead is always taken, but ditttohead is always available for a name.

    For outdoor use, the only proper valve on the market is the 7000SXT. The 2510 does come with an "Environmental" cover, but it is only a name. It is not very water or dust proof. The 2510 used to come with a standrad cover, absolutely no good for outdoor use since it tended to draw dirt and moisture in. The 7000SXT has a nema listing. The 2510SXT is a great valve, but it is more expensive than the 7000SXT. The 2510 is based on the original fleck valve design, and even uses the same piston and brine valve, injector assembly from over 40 years ago. This valve would be the Primary high end valve from Fleck for small applications if the 7000SXT did not exist. The 7000SXT was a fresh valve, fleck did not reuse any parts from old systems to make this valve. This allowed them to really push the valves potential without being restricted to using parts from other controls. That is why the valve can flow nearly double the other controls, and can also backwash at nearly double the flowrate as well. It also uses a modern bypass, and has a huge variety of plumbing options available. It is considered a 1-1/4" valve. It is rated for filtering tanks up to 24" in diameter. The 2510 is rated for 16" tanks, 5600 is up to 10" tanks.

    Yes, I am partial to the 7000SXT. I have been using it since before they were available to the public, same with the 2510, I have had prototypes of nearly every Fleck valve made. The 7000 is a very mature valve, the few minor problems it had early on have been corrected.

    Hope this helps.

  4. #34
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    So I take it you are not a fan of the handy man garbage bag and duct tape valve cover LOL Very common in southern regions among the redneck crowd.

    I like the 7000SXT valve also. It is pretty damn near bullet proof and accurate. I also sell a crap load of Clack valves too and though I admit that it took me awhile to warm up to them, they have proved to be reliable and very easy to service.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  5. #35
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Tom, the Clack valves are excellent. I like the adjustability of the sxt programming vs. the WSI1, CS, EE, etc. Both valves have their odd quirks, but compared to the fake Flecks and Fake Clack valves, their is nothing like them. My favorite is the Fleck 7000XTR, it is what I have in my house and all of my families houses. My biggest complaint on the Clack is Clack. Tank warranty by inspection only, they cry anytime we send back a bad board or ask for any kind of warranty. Fleck has never asked to see a ,imeral tank, only a picture and a hole in it )field scrap), and anytime I have had a parts warranty, they dont even ask questions. I recently had a problem on a new triplex 2900, it turned out we accidentally mixed different software versions of the NXT controller, Fleck sent out 3 new controllers to our customer directly, no charge, no questions asked. They have been awesome for customer service.

    On a side note, Fleck was showing off some new toys in Amsterdam a couple months ago, a modified ProFlo 5000 (ugh). It uses a 12 V. DC drive, one piece seal and spacer kit, and it should be priced lower then the 5600. They also had the "Hybrid" system. It will remove 80-90% of the hardness w/out salt. I am guessing it is a modified EDI unit for whole house applications. I am anxious to get my hands on one of those for playing with. It will probably be extremely expemsive, but no salt, hopefully minimal maintenance, decent rejection rates, and decent efficiency, it may be a sellable item.

    Are you going to make it to Las Vegas in March? I will be manning a large booth there, anybody who is going to make it, let me know.

  6. #36
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I would like to see a working model of the Hybrid system. They are probably the next big thing in conditioning. Might make it to Vegas. Depends on my schedule. You are on target with Clack though and I suspect a lot of their policy is because of problems they had when everybody and his brother was selling Clack valves on the internet a while back.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  7. #37
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    Here is what I wrote for your reading pleasure. Notice the word "if"?

    I'm saying I have a one customer that has 30+ gpg hardness and if I do not clean out these ports from the calcuim (not chlorine) every 4 months, it doesn't work properly.

    Have you ever tested the amount of chlorine after the pellet chlorinator at a customers house? I have and no matter where the adjustment knob (feed rate) is, the chlorine level is too high. I have them on 0 and still get 3+ppm chlorine. Whereas with an injection system, I can adjust to get only.5 ppm chlorine. And everyone knows that carbon will last longer with the least amount of chlorine it must remove. I simply made a statement about the pellet chlorinator that you didn't like so you tried to make me look bad once again. You are no longer in the field servicing equipment so you don't see the same things I see. I serviced 1 of the ones I sold 2 weeks ago. What do you think I saw? Maybe a pictue next time. It will be worth a thousand words. LOL
    Going back a bit... Right pellets means the pellets developed by the manufacturer of the inline pellet chlorinator he invented and I sold. I bought from directly him and sold and installed and serviced a number of them before I sold any online to DIYers. His pellets are harder than other pellets and I do not believe you've tested whatever it is blocking "the ports" to be able to claim it is hardness scale (calcium) instead of being caused by the pellets. I also should ask what type retention are you using? I always used his and never had a problem with any of them. I always filled the hopper to the instructions of an inch below the bottom edge of the center tube's cap too. And the pellets would be gone with average household water use in 2.5 to 3 months.

    Yes I have tested the chlorine and it is a waste of time and money. You sound as if you don't understand that there are two versions of the chlorinator I sold. The regular order of the chlorinator I sold gets you a dummy knob that does nothing but rotate uselessly. You adjust the dose by aligning a hole in the end cap with a hole in the side of the center tube.

    The special order version has/is a continuous feed that is adjusted with the knob active (different part number). Continuous feed means chlorine is dosed/used every time water starts flowing and continues until the flow stops. You don't get continuous feed in the regular version, meaning depending on the water flow gpm you may or may not get some or more chlorine. For residential and small commercial well water applications you set the holes to the minimum setting; the knob doesn't do anything no matter where you set it. So you can't set it on "0" as you say you have unless you are using (misapplying actually) a continuous feed version.

    The manufacturer's instructions of the chlorinator I sold says to service it before the pellets are used up. At the minimum setting, that is roughly every 8-10 weeks for the average household. That is every 2 to 2.5 months. You aren't doing that or telling your customers to do it.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  8. #38
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    The pellet feeders are a poor mans solution to chlorine injection. A chemical pump will always be more accurate.

    I agree that the pellet feeder type of units require a lot more service.

    I have been referring a lot of customers to the HN55 pump system, very inexpensive, ultra reliable, no electricity, and extremely cheap to rebuild. None of the units I have put in have needed service yet, and considering how inexpensive they are, a complete replacement would not be difficult to justify. Chlorine conrol with the pellet systems is also very hard to control accurately. Try testing the water that comes out of it when has been sitting overnight.

    The chlorine pellet systems work great, but the ones I have used overchlorinate, (not a big deal since Carbon is cheap and has a huge ability to remove chlorine), require regular cleaning, and the pellets are not as easy to buy as Chlorox household bleach.
    With well water containing high iron, possibly IRB and other types of bacteria and possibly manganese, I found a good shotgun approach to be much better than Olympic target rife at 3500 meters accuracy. I did all my service work and many years of selling and servicing water treatment equipment in PA. A state that historically has had the most or close to the most wells in the nation. BTW, now I've been away from the "field" since 2005 and out of business for the last 18 months but, I've never seen or heard of any well with any type of casing other than steel; and usually 6" casing. Back in the late 1980s and into the early 1990s I sold and serviced solution feeders. With the well water I was treating they were a nightmare to maintain. So I went with the inline pellet chlorinator system I've been talking about and there is no moving parts or electric needed and nothing to rebuild but, I don't agree with it being called the poor man's solution to chlorination because if you use the original and not a knock off and follow the instructions they work everytime and everywhere with minimal service and they are bulletproof. The only part someone might have to replace would be the lid's o-ring and that would be due to mishandling it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Another solution that doesnt get a lot of attention is the autotrol Well pro chlorinator which takes care of the problem at the source by dropping chlorine pellets into the well itself. These have to be installed by someone who knows what they are doing, but done right, they are an excellent solution which usually eliminates the contact tanks.
    I've sold, installed and serviced a few pellet droppers, including a few online but I used the Sentry 1 instead of Autotrol.

    A previously stated, they are capable of damaging steel well casing, and not only steel casing but a submersible or deep or shallow well jet pumps and metal drop pipe and/or metal fittings and can make the water quality worse than it was. So my advice has been to use them only as a last resort and rarely.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #39
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    The Sentry is a pretty decent unit as well. I dont dislike the pellet systems, so long as the homeowner pays close attantion to it and keeps it clean. They overchlorinate all the time, but who cares, Carbon is cheap and eats chlorine. You have never heard of PVC well casings? Very common, and they last forever. No problems with acidic ground, corrosion, etc... They are also much less expensive. You should drop by the NGWA show later this year if you are bored and want to see some serious well drilling equipment. Just like steel tanks for softners, steel casings are not as common as they used to be. That being said, the pellet drop systems are not too bad with steel casings, you just have to be sure to maintain no more than 1-2 PPM of chlorine to minimize oxidation. As you know, it akes a real pro to do the pellet drop systems without making things worse. Done right, it is the best solution, done wrong, it is a nightmare. We used to fill a couple holes in the drop system so it would drop less tablets into the well so as to not overchlorinate smaller wells.

    Thanks again for the input!

  10. #40
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    In the northeast there ain't no such thing as PVC well case and even if you wanted to use it the code won't allow you too. 99% of all wells up here are 8" steel case, grouted to bedrock. Iron is a very big issue in quite a few towns around me and over the years we have used anything and everything possible including pellet drop which as you say, in a steel case well needs to be handled with the utmost care and, because 4 foot of snow is not uncommon, the whole mess needs to be protected. We all tried pellet feed (after the well) probably about 15 years back with less than stellar results but as you say, carbon is cheap. However, maintenance on these systems is an issue and requires the cooperation of the homeowner. Lord knows we try to sell maintenance contracts whenever we can but these days they are getting harder to sell as folks have less and less income. My brother in law is a well driller / water treatment contractor in Florida. He is always amazed at the difference in technology as regards drilling equipment and what goes down the hole. Most drillers around here have well over a million bucks into the rig alone but then again, going 800 feet or so is pretty common here.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  11. #41
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Bedrock is the main issue with PVC, most of my well drilling customers have switched to PVC when possible for the lower intial cost and longer life expectancy. PVC in bedrock would not be allowed as far as I know, but I am not a driller. I attend seminars and trade shows and work with these guys a lot. Most of the Wells on the West coast for residential applications use PVC whenever possible.

    A million dollar rig sounds about right. The NGWA show has a dozen of those inside the Las Vegas Convention center every year. I am usually manning a little booth stuck in a corner with a few products. The well drillers are amazing, it makes ou national trade show look wimpy.

    Gary, has your opinion changed on PVC vs steel casing inthe past few years? I know most guys who have been doing this a while get used to a certain way and dont like change, but PVC well casing just makes sense when it is possible. What do you think?
    http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/r...eel-pvc-2.html
    One of your posts from a few years ago about PVC. Thought you never heard of them

  12. #42
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    I implied it but should have said not heard of PVC casing in PA. IMO PVC casing may not do well in the rock bore wells of PA.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #43
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Going back a bit... Right pellets means the pellets developed by the manufacturer of the inline pellet chlorinator he invented and I sold. I bought from directly him and sold and installed and serviced a number of them before I sold any online to DIYers. His pellets are harder than other pellets and I do not believe you've tested whatever it is blocking "the ports" to be able to claim it is hardness scale (calcium) instead of being caused by the pellets. I also should ask what type retention are you using? I always used his and never had a problem with any of them. I always filled the hopper to the instructions of an inch below the bottom edge of the center tube's cap too. And the pellets would be gone with average household water use in 2.5 to 3 months.

    Yes I have tested the chlorine and it is a waste of time and money. You sound as if you don't understand that there are two versions of the chlorinator I sold. The regular order of the chlorinator I sold gets you a dummy knob that does nothing but rotate uselessly. You adjust the dose by aligning a hole in the end cap with a hole in the side of the center tube.

    The special order version has/is a continuous feed that is adjusted with the knob active (different part number). Continuous feed means chlorine is dosed/used every time water starts flowing and continues until the flow stops. You don't get continuous feed in the regular version, meaning depending on the water flow gpm you may or may not get some or more chlorine. For residential and small commercial well water applications you set the holes to the minimum setting; the knob doesn't do anything no matter where you set it. So you can't set it on "0" as you say you have unless you are using (misapplying actually) a continuous feed version.

    The manufacturer's instructions of the chlorinator I sold says to service it before the pellets are used up. At the minimum setting, that is roughly every 8-10 weeks for the average household. That is every 2 to 2.5 months. You aren't doing that or telling your customers to do it.
    Guess you didn't like my last post. I really could care less of the ones you sold. I only worry about the equipment I sell and if it is nothing but trouble (as I have found with these pellet chlorinator) I will let as many people know the trouble I have had. I use only the pellets my supplier recommends for the chlorinator. Besides, how many time have you seen chlorine grow stalagtites? Don't bother answering. I'm done with this.

  14. #44
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    Guess you didn't like my last post. I really could care less of the ones you sold. I only worry about the equipment I sell and if it is nothing but trouble (as I have found with these pellet chlorinator) I will let as many people know the trouble I have had. I use only the pellets my supplier recommends for the chlorinator. Besides, how many time have you seen chlorine grow stalagtites? Don't bother answering. I'm done with this.
    Your last post was nothing but a personal attack on me.

    Now you are saying you only worry about the equipment you sell, yet you have been talking about that equipment as if it is what I sold. Or that what I sold was the same equipment. And buying pellets your supplier suggests. I bought what I was selling from the manufacturer of the chlorinator and the pellets he developed for use in his pellet chlorinator. And me and my customers followed his instructions and I added my own to his and my customers using his equipment and all the instructions do not have the problems you had with the equipment you sold. IMO because you act like many other dealers I have seen that do not follow directions and then run down the equipment when it doesn't work for you or your customers.

    I have seen bleach cause solution feeder injectors etc. to block up, that is chlorine and no I haven't seen the pellets block "ports" because I and my customers did proper and timely service but it is mentioned as a possibility when service is not down when it should be.

    BTW, my experience with many suppliers' personnel is that they have never sold to the end user or serviced the majority of the equipment they sell their dealers and yet many dealers rely on their information. I never did that, I went to the manufacturers and was always warmly welcomed and was thanked for the effort. You might want to do that too.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  15. #45
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Well yes, most suppliers and distributors have probably not sold to the general public at least I hope they have not, otherwise how are we supposed to compete? And again, they don't service them either, that's our job.

    So it is your conclusion that mialynette is not properly servicing his customers?
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 01-29-2012 at 01:59 PM.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

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