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Thread: Need help in choosing & sizing water treatment equipment.

  1. #16
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    The injection pumps are perfect for properly controlling the injection rates and the pumps last for years. You can also use standard blech and dilute it to meet your needs. The chlorine pellets will obviously over chlorinate when the water sits for any length of time, but considering that a carbon tank is being used instead of a BB filter, the overdose of chlorine will likely never be noticed. GAC is cheap to replace as well. I have had the same problems with the pellet chlorinators, always fouling up. Cleaning them only takes a few minutes though so really, it is probably not a big problem. I have been doing USP systems for the past 10 years and we only used diaphragm injection pumps. We could not qualify pellet systems due to their inconsistecy. But... I am also a cooling tower technician, and we always used pellet systems there because we were lazy, and we also did not continuously chlorinate, we would fill the hopper and let it run until it was out and that would basically cause a self cleaning cycle.

    The feeder you linked to is definetly not the unit I am used to seeing. It looks similar but is under $100. I assume this is definetly a case of you get what you pay for. The couple of knock offs I have seen in the feild are junk. But, considering the cost of this feeder, a pump system may make more sense.

    We do not sell, but we do highly recommend this pump here. Every one of our customers that has used it swears by it. No electricity, years of trouble free service, cheap to rebuild, easy to maintain. And by using household bleach, your cost is neglible. http://www.hydrosystemsco.com/brands...izer-hn55.html
    I have used several of these on boiler feeds, non USP RO chemical injections systems, small cooling tower systems, and any other applications successfully.

  2. #17
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    The biggest problems I have found with pellet chlorinator is you can not control the amount of chlorine being added and the ports get stopped up with calcium. I perfer an injection pump.
    I said on the minimum dose. The oxidation is taking place in the retention tank and all you need is a strong smell of chlorine in the water you drain out of it as you flush sediment off the bottom once a month. The average household of 3-4 people usually has to clean and refill every 10-12 weeks.

    I have sold quite a few of them, the version for noncontinuous feeding, since the late 1990s and most to DIYers over the internet and haven't heard of blocked "ports". Maybe you didn't use the right pellets or have the center tube and cap dosage holes lined up correctly. Frankly I don't know what "ports" you are talking about.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #18
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I said on the minimum dose. The oxidation is taking place in the retention tank and all you need is a strong smell of chlorine in the water you drain out of it as you flush sediment off the bottom once a month. The average household of 3-4 people usually has to clean and refill every 10-12 weeks.

    I have sold quite a few of them, the version for noncontinuous feeding, since the late 1990s and most to DIYers over the internet and haven't heard of blocked "ports". Maybe you didn't use the right pellets or have the center tube and cap dosage holes lined up correctly. Frankly I don't know what "ports" you are talking about.
    LOL. Right pellets? You got to be kidding me. It's chlorine. They dissolve complete. The ports am refering to are the ones you just spoke of. How can I not have the center port or dozage port ligned up properly? I didn't lign it up in the first place the manufacture did. I'm saying I have a one customer that has 30+ gpg hardness and if I do not clean out these ports from the calcuim (not chlorine) every 4 months, it doesn't work properly. I have 2 others that need service every 8-12 months. I listened to you about these pellets chlorinators and installed 3 of them. Now I wish I never did. They are not worth the problems they cause. I'll stick to an injection pump.

  4. #19
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Sorry, I missed the calcium blocking the ports part but...

    If you followed my instructions I sent my DIYer customers, and you weren't doing the service so you can charge the customer for it instead of teaching them to do it, you would have him doing the service every 8-10 weeks and he wouldn't have blocked "ports".

    I don't see how you have any that go 12 months without needing more pellets. And you should be cleaning the hopper every time you add pellets. They must not be working.

    Aligning the holes perfectly is easy, look at them as you put the cap on the center tube before installing the center tube. Or use an awl or ice pick type something and make sure the cap is on tight so it doesn't rotate as you screw the top on and the center tube is in far enough and tight.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #20
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Sorry, I missed the calcium blocking the ports part but...

    If you followed my instructions I sent my DIYer customers, and you weren't doing the service so you can charge the customer for it instead of teaching them to do it, you would have him doing the service every 8-10 weeks and he wouldn't have blocked "ports".

    I don't see how you have any that go 12 months without needing more pellets. And you should be cleaning the hopper every time you add pellets. They must not be working.

    Aligning the holes perfectly is easy, look at them as you put the cap on the center tube before installing the center tube. Or use an awl or ice pick type something and make sure the cap is on tight so it doesn't rotate as you screw the top on and the center tube is in far enough and tight.
    There is one major flaw in your statement..... I don't charge them the extra 15 minutes it takes me to clean the units out. I only charge them of the items used..salt, chlorine pellets etc.....Just part of my route service I offer. My point is that the ports in the pellet chlorinator get plugged up a lot sooner than the injector of a pump and you can not control the amount of chlorine added, but you can with an injection pump.

  6. #21
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    I hear ya, a freebee, along with your free delivery of salt.

    BTW, my instructions were the same as the inventor's/manufacturer's instructions and from talking to him while you've proven that you did things your way and now are putting the equipment down for it not working right.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #22
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I hear ya, a freebee, along with your free delivery of salt.

    BTW, my instructions were the same as the inventor's/manufacturer's instructions and from talking to him while you've proven that you did things your way and now are putting the equipment down for it not working right.
    I never said I did things my way, you said that to make yourself look good once again. I merely pointed out the fact that the ports get clogged up with calcuim more often than an injector and the fact that you can not control the amount of chlorine. A point which you have failed to comment on several times. The excess chlorine burns out the carbon faster requiring replacement a lot sooner vs an injection system.
    Last edited by mialynette2003; 01-24-2012 at 03:14 PM. Reason: correct spelling

  8. #23
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    You serviced them every 4 or 6-8 months and they didn't work.

    You control the dose by setting the regular version at the minimum dose or use the knob for a continuous version.

    "burn out the carbon"?. You say all three you sold didn't work. So IMO you are spreading rumors because you never had one work to see how long the carbon would last. With the exception of two that didn't follow installation instructions, my customers got like 5 years out of their 1.5' of Centaur carbon.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    You serviced them every 4 or 6-8 months and they didn't work.

    You control the dose by setting the regular version at the minimum dose or use the knob for a continuous version.

    "burn out the carbon"?. You say all three you sold didn't work. So IMO you are spreading rumors because you never had one work to see how long the carbon would last. With the exception of two that didn't follow installation instructions, my customers got like 5 years out of their 1.5' of Centaur carbon.
    Here is what I wrote for your reading pleasure. Notice the word "if"?

    I'm saying I have a one customer that has 30+ gpg hardness and if I do not clean out these ports from the calcuim (not chlorine) every 4 months, it doesn't work properly.

    Have you ever tested the amount of chlorine after the pellet chlorinator at a customers house? I have and no matter where the adjustment knob (feed rate) is, the chlorine level is too high. I have them on 0 and still get 3+ppm chlorine. Whereas with an injection system, I can adjust to get only.5 ppm chlorine. And everyone knows that carbon will last longer with the least amount of chlorine it must remove. I simply made a statement about the pellet chlorinator that you didn't like so you tried to make me look bad once again. You are no longer in the field servicing equipment so you don't see the same things I see. I serviced 1 of the ones I sold 2 weeks ago. What do you think I saw? Maybe a pictue next time. It will be worth a thousand words. LOL

  10. #25
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    The pellet feeders are a poor mans solution to chlorine injection. A chemical pump will always be more accurate. I agree that the pellet feeder type of units require a lot more service. I have been referring a lot of customers to the HN55 pump system, very inexpensive, ultra reliable, no electricity, and extremely cheap to rebuild. None of the units I have put in have needed service yet, and considering how inexpensive they are, a complete replacement would not be difficult to justify. Chlorine conrol with the pellet systems is also very hard to control accurately. Try testing the water that comes out of it when has been sitting overnight.
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    The chlorine pellet systems work great, but the ones I have used overchlorinate, (not a big deal since Carbon is cheap and has a huge ability to remove chlorine), require regular cleaning, and the pellets are not as easy to buy as Chlorox household bleach.

    Another solution that doesnt get a lot of attention is the autotrol Well pro chlorinator which takes care of the problem at the source by dropping chlorine pellets into the well itself. These have to be installed by someone who knows what they are doing, but done right, they are an excellent solution which usually eliminates the contact tanks.

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  11. #26
    DIY Junior Member Platin465's Avatar
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    Wow, lots of info. I like this idea of an injector. I've seen some prices and looks good. All together, the package Gary showed comes out to about the same as an injector method, unless I'm putting together the wrong parts. I've been terribly busy with company staying with us, as well as deadlines at work or I'd be more active in the discussion. I'll keep reading and researching, and try to make a decision by late next week.

    The water quality has been decent despite the extra load. I've been running the softener once every three/four days instead of 6/7 days. Other than rust stains, it seems fine. I may start by adding one of these chlorinating systems and replacing the pressure tank, seeing how that works for me, then add a new softener once I've saved up some more. But, we'll see.

    Again, thanks for the advice and candid discussions of the different options!

  12. #27
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    For the record I tried pellet feed a few years back with less than satisfactory results. ( all the reasons you and dittohead have explained ) went back to liquid injection and I can't honestly remember when the last time I had a callback or service issue with one. As for well, pellet systems, they work but here in the north east 99% of our wells are steel cased and the chlorine raises hell with the steel case, so it solves one problem and creates another which when you get right down to it is pretty much the order of the day when treating water. You rob Peter a bit to pay Paul.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  13. #28
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    The pellet drop systems are awesome but... like you said, you really have to know when you can, and can not use them. Steel cased well, bad idea. Cheap submersible pump. bad idea, 4" well, difficult, usually a bad idea, but it can work sometimes with some tweaks. The equipment is also not as reliable as I would ike to see them. They require more maintenance than an injection pump. The pellets are ridiculously priced to.

    Chlorox or generic liquid household bleach is cheap, readily available, just watch your % of sodium hypochlorite and adjust as needed. Even pool chlorine can be used.

    Has anyone else here used the HN55 pumps? I am serious when I say they are amazing, and we dont even sell or distribute them so I have no financial interest. We sell Stenner ourselves, but I still push people to the HN55.

  14. #29
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I have not tried them but based on your glowing recommendation I think I may very well give it a try. I sell Stenner as well.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  15. #30
    DIY Junior Member Platin465's Avatar
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    Well, I've been looking around and I found information and troubleshooting guides for that HN55. I really like that sort of info. So I've priced a system. Please let me know if this is all I would need to effectively treat the iron, then remove it as well as the Chrorine from the water:

    HN55 Fixed rate chemical Injector (which fixed rate should I choose for this application?)
    WellMate 120 Gallon Universal Retention Tank
    Fleck 5600SXT Digital Control 12x48 Granular Activated Carbon Filter & 1" Stainless Bypass
    Eco-Tech Standpipe Air Gap (I don't think I have one now, outside install- do I need one?)

    Also, as I need a new pressure tank, any advice on one for the humid Florida air? How about this one?
    Flexcon 35 Gallon Fiberglass Pressure Tank

    I'm not too sure about the right size water softener as I don't want to get one too big and then not have to clean it out frequently enough (although there is the advice of setting the 8-day override). I'm trying to wrap my head around this info from gary's link (thanks!!) http://www.qualitywaterassociates.co...izingchart.htm. So far, I gather I need a 1.5 (that's 48k, right?) if there is only 1ppm iron left after the above iron filtering. Then, I would be using 5 lbs. of salt on a 7-day cycle, with 24 hours of reserve capacity. I haven't figured out the SFR yet, but this page makes it sound easy: http://www.ohiopurewater.com/shop/flowrate.html. Is that right? If I'm regenerating in 7 days, should I get a smaller softener so I can regenerate more frequently with similar salt usage? Perhaps I should figure out what quality of water I get out of the iron removal system before deciding on a water softener.

    Please let me know if I'm going in a good direction, and if the items I'm thinking of buying seem right for what I need accomplished. Thank you all very much!!

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